Musings on Kali Yuga

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Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:42 pm

I was watching/listening to this this morning:



And I started to think about all the whinging and whining in regards to Kali Yuga and the destruction of the Dharma teachings. It occurred to me that we are here now in Kali Yuga as a consequence of our karma (actions) in the past. We all lived during the Satya Yuga (the Golden Age) and yet obviously we "pissed" away our opportunity to achieve enlightenment under those incredibly fortunate conditions.

Then again, we are taught that (ultimately) we produce our environment and circumstances, yet here we are (again): arguing, bickering, fighting, splitting hairs, condemning...

Reminds me of a joke (which I will modify slightly):

A guy dies and goes to heaven. As he is about to enter he is given an opportunity to tour hell just to get an idea of how his time and energy during his life was not wasted. Anyway, he gets to see it all: flaming pits, flagellation, crushing, skinning, boiling, freezing, etc...

At one point he is lead into a room with three huge cauldrons bubbling over enormous fires. The first two have lids on them with gigantic rocks placed on top of the lids, chains to hold the lids down, etc... The third cauldron though, has no lid on it at all.

So the guy turns to the demon tour guide and asks: "What's the deal with the three cauldrons?"
The demon replies: "In the first cauldron we put in the murderers and rapists, we boil them slowly over the fire and tie the lid down firmly to make sure they don't escape. In the second cauldron we have the thieves and fornicators. We we boil them slowly over the fire and tie the lid down firmly to make sure they don't escape. In the third cauldron we have the Buddhists. We boil them slowly over the fire."
"But the third cauldron has no lid!" The guy exclaims. "Don't they climb out?"
"Oh, no, there is no chance of that happening," answers the demon. "You see, every time one tries to climb out the rest drag them back into the boiling cauldron."

We make Kali Yuga, we can break it.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby hop.pala » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:32 pm

"We make Kali Yuga, we can break it."

Aha maybe have you right and can stop it,or maybe are we in the kali yuga because live the spirit in body and it is no more stopable,only can be alleviated the effects.It would also be important to alleviate.The song is good i just listen it.(free tibet)
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby hop.pala » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:07 pm

"We make Kali Yuga, we can break it."

Until bodhistvas in the earth,are we not in the Kali Yuga.When buddhas live on the earth ,we can'not speak about Kali Yuga.
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby oushi » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:17 pm

I have no idea how did you get to such deep levels of self criticism Greg, but I admire it. You seems to be the first one who grabs the ankles of those who are trying to go above. Don't worry, me too. And I do not see anything wrong with it, since I already reduced the above heavens into absurd. The only thing that is left for me, is to reduce the scaffolding people have built to reach it.
We all lived during the Satya Yuga

Let me pull you down a little bit with my question... Have you seen me back then, or you just believe you did?
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:47 pm

Oh, I am sure that we knew each other back then. No doubt about it! :smile:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:23 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
And I started to think about all the whinging and whining in regards to Kali Yuga and the destruction of the Dharma teachings. It occurred to me that we are here now in Kali Yuga as a consequence of our karma (actions) in the past. We all lived during the Satya Yuga (the Golden Age) and yet obviously we "pissed" away our opportunity to achieve enlightenment under those incredibly fortunate conditions.


The four ages is a nearly universal theme worldwide.

Interestingly, some Native American schemes presents each age [parsed as Suns] as an improvement over the last.

Though not an easy read, Witzel's The Origins of the World's Mythologies provides much interesting context for all the world's mythologies such as the four ages and so on.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:Interestingly, some Native American schemes presents each age [parsed as Suns] as an improvement over the last.
Hmmmmmm... :thinking:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby smcj » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:29 pm

I've been told that we are in the Kalu Yuga, and that it is defined as such by "the darkness in men's minds". Having had an episode of substance abuse myself, I can easily see how that is the case. This is not like the "where's Mt. Meru" thread to me.
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:24 pm

smcj wrote:This is not like the "where's Mt. Meru" thread to me.


Sure it is -- in Buddhist mythological texts there is clearly described a progressive degeneration to the present day. In the treta yuga for example, humans are supposed to have had limitless lifespans. Then in the second age, lifespans of 80,000 years and so on, down to the pathetic one hundred years (if you're lucky) lifespan of the present day.

The best explanation I have seen is that a "golden" age depends on the virtue of the rulers. Hence, the longing we often see expressed on this board to return to some form of "Dharma monarchy".

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby theanarchist » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:28 pm

smcj wrote:I've been told that we are in the Kalu Yuga, and that it is defined as such by "the darkness in men's minds". Having had an episode of substance abuse myself, I can easily see how that is the case. This is not like the "where's Mt. Meru" thread to me.



I don't see much difference in the "darkness in men's mind" these days compared to let's say 2000 years ago on average. Humans are not more or less cruel or unethical or destructive today compared to back then. And some unethical practices even have more or less stopped, like for example human sacrifices due to religion, something that was wide spread worldwide over millenia.

What is a new quality of destuction is that these days a lot of "extra" conflicts and suffering are and will be caused by over population and environmental pollution. If this is a kali yuga then it's an environmental one, we as humans destroying the planet and the resources we live off due to greed and ignorance.
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:This is not like the "where's Mt. Meru" thread to me.


Sure it is -- in Buddhist mythological texts there is clearly described a progressive degeneration to the present day. In the treta yuga for example, humans are supposed to have had limitless lifespans. Then in the second age, lifespans of 80,000 years and so on, down to the pathetic one hundred years (if you're lucky) lifespan of the present day.

The best explanation I have seen is that a "golden" age depends on the virtue of the rulers. Hence, the longing we often see expressed on this board to return to some form of "Dharma monarchy".

M
I think that smcj was trying to say that the subject of this thread strikes, for them, a more personal, rather than a scholastic/intellectual, note.

For me it is also seems to be more symbolic of psychological/personal characteristics (and thus mutable).

That said, "theanarchist" made a largely valid point, except that within the narrow confines of a theory that deals strictly with historical epochs:
The duration and chronological starting point in human history of Kali Yuga has given rise to different evaluations and interpretations. According to the Surya Siddhanta, Kali Yuga began at midnight (00:00) on 18 February 3102 BCE in the proleptic Julian calendar, or 14 January 3102 BC in the proleptic Gregorian calendar. This date is also considered by many Hindus to be the day that Krishna left Earth to return to his abode.
From the book The Indus Script and the Rg-Veda

So that places "2000 years ago" about 1000 years into the Kali Yuga. The Kali Yuga is supposed to last 432,000 years, (and there is a 10,000 year Golden Age tucked away in there somewhere).
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Fruitzilla » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:14 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Interestingly, some Native American schemes presents each age [parsed as Suns] as an improvement over the last.
Hmmmmmm... :thinking:


Oy, Greg! http://www.cracked.com/article_20731_5-amazing-pieces-good-news-nobody-reporting.html

:smile:
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:49 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
The duration and chronological starting point in human history of Kali Yuga has given rise to different evaluations and interpretations. According to the Surya Siddhanta, Kali Yuga began at midnight (00:00) on 18 February 3102 BCE in the proleptic Julian calendar, or 14 January 3102 BC in the proleptic Gregorian calendar. This date is also considered by many Hindus to be the day that Krishna left Earth to return to his abode.
From the book The Indus Script and the Rg-Veda

So that places "2000 years ago" about 1000 years into the Kali Yuga. The Kali Yuga is supposed to last 432,000 years, (and there is a 10,000 year Golden Age tucked away in there somewhere).


While Buddhist notion of the four ages based on Kalacakra are a little different, this is the Buddhist Kali Yuga. This is based on concept that the Buddha's teaching will endure for 5000 years. Check the Ornament of Stainless Light by the 15th century Gelug master Khedrup Norzang Gyatso.

If you accept the Kalacakra dates for the parinirvana of the Buddha (927 BCE), Rudra Cakravartin is supposed to defeat the Muslims in 2430 (1800 years after the conquest of Mecca), at the end of the Buddhist Kali Yuga. This will issue in another four Buddhist ages and all told, Buddhadharma is supposed to last in this world roughly 5000 years altogether.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:29 pm

Thread is cleaned up and unlocked, please keep in mind the topic of thread, and try to keep on topic, as well as abiding by the Terms of Service.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Minjeay » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:56 pm

Well, topic is that our world is a piece of shit, right?
Can't be so difficult to keep on topic then.

It's still a sign of false views.
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:07 pm

Minjeay wrote:Well, topic is that our world is a piece of shit, right?
Nope. The topic is that people believe and act like the world is a piece of shit and so the world becomes a piece of shit. By the same token we can act differently and stop the world being a piece of shit. ie Our situation is not 100% defined by some supposed fixed external factor (a Yuga).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby smcj » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:32 pm

Well, topic is that our world is a piece of shit, right?

I don't think so. When I had a substance abuse problem the world looked like shit. In reality I was the shit, and that meant I had shit colored glasses. That can change, and it did. My Kali Yuga is in the past. My sympathies goes out to those that are still there.
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby theanarchist » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:44 am

Malcolm wrote:If you accept the Kalacakra dates for the parinirvana of the Buddha (927 BCE), Rudra Cakravartin is supposed to defeat the Muslims in 2430 (1800 years after the conquest of Mecca),.



The muslims ???

There is something in the Kalachakra texts about Muslims?
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:24 am

theanarchist wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If you accept the Kalacakra dates for the parinirvana of the Buddha (927 BCE), Rudra Cakravartin is supposed to defeat the Muslims in 2430 (1800 years after the conquest of Mecca),.



The muslims ???

There is something in the Kalachakra texts about Muslims?


Yup.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Musings on Kali Yuga

Postby Minjeay » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:11 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:The topic is that people believe and act like the world is a piece of shit and so the world becomes a piece of shit. By the same token we can act differently and stop the world being a piece of shit. ie Our situation is not 100% defined by some supposed fixed external factor (a Yuga).

Well, it's not necessary to have people believe in the world being a piece of shit to let them find delight in hurting others, or at least not caring about it as long as they are the center of their world.
That serves really great to actively make the world a piece of shit for others, but what it takes is simply carelessness and a lack of awareness and compassion.

The really funny part of it is that you are a piece of the environment (external factor) of and for others.
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