Plant Neurobiology

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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:13 pm

Thanks, Malcolm! Back in the day, The Secret Life of Plants http://www.amazon.com/The-Secret-Life-P ... 0060915870 really opened up my mind about consciousness, and it is good to see that such investigations are still ongoing.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:36 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, the subject of the discussion is the Pollen article, and therefore the title is correct.
The author is called Pollan and plants do not have neurons maybe you skipped the high school biology class where they explained that one)...

Maybe you two should get a room.

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The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:44 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
“Yes, plants have both short- and long-term electrical signalling, and they use some neurotransmitter-like chemicals as chemical signals,” Lincoln Taiz, an emeritus professor of plant physiology at U.C. Santa Cruz and one of the signers of the Alpi letter, told me. “But the mechanisms are quite different from those of true nervous systems.” Taiz says that the writings of the plant neurobiologists suffer from “over-interpretation of data, teleology, anthropomorphizing, philosophizing, and wild speculations.”


Yes, thanks, I read the article quite closely.

The article is about plant neurobiology. Some people, like yourself, might take issue with the term since plants do not have "neurons", but they clearly have information processing capacities and cells that appear homologous with neurons, as the article also suggests.

You might also work on the attitude.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:36 pm

If these scientists want to be taken seriously (and I personally see no reason why they shouldn't), then they need to come up with a term/label that more accurately describes the cells which are responsible for the transmission of information in plants. In that way they will avoid the anthropomorphism which is implied by using the term "neurons". Plants are complex and rich organisms that "deserve" a specific array of terms to describe their functioning. Just because they are similar does not mean they are the same. Cats and dogs are VERY similar, but you wouldn't call a cat a dog, or a dog a cat, would you?

Ditto on the attitude.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Virgo » Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:06 am

Nevermind.

Kevin
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby reddust » Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:07 am

Some more reading material

Plant Neurobiology describes a newly named, but also old and fascinating field in plant biology addressing the physiological basis of adaptive behavior in plants. Perhaps this field could be called "Sensory Biology in Plants" or something similar. However, these names don't quite cover topics like plant cytology and anatomy, adaptive plant behavior, signaling and communication in symbiosis and pathogenesis, or newly emerging topics like for instance plant immunity, plant memory and learning, plant-plant communication, as well as plant intelligence.

Our choice of the term Plant Neurobiology is described in Brenner et al. (2006) where we note some obvious analogies between classical neurobiology and some aspects of the physiology of plants. For example, plants have long been known to respond sensitively to environmental stimuli by movement and changes in morphology, to be electrically excitable, to display rapid electrical responses (action potentials) to environmental stimuli, to synthesize numerous organic molecules that act as neurochemicals in other organisms, and to use hormonal signaling pathways to coordinate development, morphology and thu

The Society for Plant Neurobiology
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Norwegian » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:00 am

Malcolm,

Thanks for that link. Great reading. This is such an enormously interesting topic, and especially when you add fungi into the mix as well.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Jesse » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:13 am

It's hard to imagine intelligence arising from a distributed network of plants for most people, but it's essentially the same way our brain works, except the brain is more or less a cohesive whole. Like the article says, you can look at intelligent behavior emerging from colonies of ants, etc, in the same way. I really like the parallels between distributed computing though. It has been theorized intelligence can emerge from any network with sufficient connections, and has led a few people to claim the internet it'self may already be an intelligent entity.

“The electric charge of an electron doesn’t arise out of more elemental properties. It simply has a charge,” says Koch. “Likewise, I argue that we live in a universe of space, time, mass, energy, and consciousness arising out of complex systems.”


A Neuroscientist’s Radical Theory of How Networks Become Conscious
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/11/christof-koch-panpsychism-consciousness/

Will the internet become conscious?
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121121-will-the-net-become-conscious
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:20 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, the subject of the discussion is the Pollen article, and therefore the title is correct.
The author is called Pollan and plants do not have neurons maybe you skipped the high school biology class where they explained that one)...

Maybe you two should get a room.

:smile:
We've already got a room, imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the room too! :tongue:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:29 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Ditto on the attitude.


Your habitually hostile tone has been mentioned many times, buy many people. You usually defend it saying "That's just how I am....".

People say many things about me, but they never call me "hostile". They usually just say I am a bully, or a fundamentalist ( :shrug: ), and then only when they haven't anything substantive with which to back up their argument.

Anyway :offtopic:
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:31 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote: In that way they will avoid the anthropomorphism which is implied by using the term "neurons".



I think the term you are looking for is not anthropomorphism, but rather, "zoomorphism", if we are going to be fussy about terms.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote: In that way they will avoid the anthropomorphism which is implied by using the term "neurons".



I think the term you are looking for is not anthropomorphism, but rather, "zoomorphism", if we are going to be fussy about terms.
Touche!
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:56 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Ditto on the attitude.


Your habitually hostile tone has been mentioned many times, buy many people. You usually defend it saying "That's just how I am....".

People say many things about me, but they never call me "hostile". They usually just say I am a bully, or a fundamentalist ( :shrug: ), and then only when they haven't anything substantive with which to back up their argument.

Anyway :offtopic:
Last time I checked passive-aggressive ad homs (character assassination) were not a valid form of debate repartee. Chill out.

It seems that you have overlooked the point that I actually do not disagree with the main thrust of the article (plants do display sophisticated behaviours), but with the use of the terms "neurons" and "neurobiology" to explain their behaviour/functioning. Neurons are a type of cells found only in Eumetazoa. These scientists need to come up with a new term and description of the cells utilised by plants in order to modify their behaviour. Toes and digital pads (of a paw) are both digits, but I imagine you would not use the terms interchangeably, so... stop being unjustifiably defensive.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:11 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Toes and digital pads (of a paw) are both digits, but I imagine you would not use the terms interchangeably, so... stop being unjustifiably defensive.


In some languages there is no separate word for toes, for example, Tibetan.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby oushi » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:16 pm

I did not read the whole article (will do it later), but are there any other connections, beside fungal web, used? And what benefit fungi receive from this "lending"? I know those are extraordinary beings. We can honestly say that fungi are the least karma generating species known, and their work can be easily seen as compassionate, since they lay foundations of life for many other species.
Where are fungi located in Buddhist cosmology, and how are they described?
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Toes and digital pads (of a paw) are both digits, but I imagine you would not use the terms interchangeably, so... stop being unjustifiably defensive.


In some languages there is no separate word for toes, for example, Tibetan.
Same in Greek. But it's beyond the point. I nonetheless believe that the specific field of plant biology would benefit from its own range of terms and shake the criticism of zoomorphism, etc... :tongue: that it is drawing thus allowing it to waste less time countering detractors. Unless, of course, they have found that plants do actually have neurons (and not cells that are like neurons).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby oushi » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:12 pm

I watched this lecture today, and I was like... WOW! It's about the nature, power and potential of mushrooms.

There is also something about neuron-like behavior of mycelium.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:17 pm

oushi wrote:I watched this lecture today, and I was like... WOW! It's about the nature, power and potential of mushrooms.

There is also something about neuron-like behavior of mycelium.



Yes, Staments work is interesting, especially in using fungi for decontamination.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby oushi » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:Yes, Staments work is interesting, especially in using fungi for decontamination.

Decontamination is just a tip of an ice berg. I watched this doc thinking, where is the end of the surprise? This is something you people need to watch. One old hippy doing an incredible work.
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Re: Plant Neurobiology

Postby reddust » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:17 pm

Paul Stamets says, "always question authority" experts that tell you don't do that are dangerous :woohoo: they may stop you from coming up with a common sense approach (paraphrasing)

I've read some of his work because I like growing my own mushrooms. Where I live huge amount of edible mushrooms here in the Douglas Fir forests in my part Oregon.

Hehe.....grow an old growth forest, spread the spores and surround Fukashima to soak up the radiation poisoning :thumbsup:
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