Is the tulku system too exclusive?

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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby reddust » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:57 am

If Buddhist practitioners of the West don't find support they will not come back to the centers and teachers who don't support them. I really think it's that simple. Isn't that what happened in India regarding Buddhism?
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby futerko » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:34 am

If I could try to summarise, I think the point is that those involved in Dharma politics (and fundraising etc.) are often not the best practitioners, and that the people gaining such positions of power in an institutional setting are perhaps promoting the identity of the Dharma, in contrast to those who just get their heads down and practice, who ask for no recognition, and who don't self-promote in the same way - and that there is a clear divide here.

Of course there is a need for people to promote institutions and work such as translating etc. however the essence of practice lies elsewhere, so there is also a need to recognise that which ordinarily lies outside of the institutional framework.
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby futerko » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:17 am

This issue clearly cuts two ways.

If someone feels excluded because they were not recognised over another who they perceive to be less realized - they need to work on that.

If an institution recognises inferior practitioners based upon work hours rather than realization - they also need to work on that.
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby muni » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:41 am

I don’t compare practice with whatever fellows and men having no respect for a me, are (having) my compassion.
No need to prove my equality neither and no need to conquer testosteron, but to conquer my mind just fits.
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:06 pm

Minjeay wrote:...and what they are doing with their time is not practicing to realize spiritual accomplishments, what would mean meditate at least half of the day, cause this actually is what helps you progress with your practice.


No, meditating at least half of the day is not the only means of accomplishment. In fact meditating half the day is not an actual means of accomplishment by itself although if done correctly you will get a positive result.

However practicing 24/7 is the main means to accomplishment. Even so, any practice done will eventually, over many, many lifetimes, get us there just due to karmic imprints. Even just raising one hand in veneration to the Buddha once a day.

I personally find taking the eight Mahayana Vows to be very powerful for myself. Unfortunately I often waste time (or don't have time) later to meditate daily.

However overcoming delusions and developing the perfections, even if not technically on the Path of Perfections, is the real hallmark of progression. An even better real mark of progression is deepening lovingkindness and compassion.

If I am asked to give money for someone's practice who in the end does less practice than me as a householder, than obviously something in this system is running wrong.


You are very proud of your practice time but it shouldn't be a source of denigrating others. We have to support one another actually. I'm sorry that you don't feel support from the monastic community.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:48 pm

'ccept that I am not a monastic, a tulku, or a Tibetan. But if projecting blame makes you feel better, then please feel free to do so.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby Nighthawk » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:46 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Some of my practices are Tibetan Buddhist Pureland practices. Having been brought up Greek Orthodox Christian (nearly becoming a priest), educated during my youth by Catholic Christian monks and having lived in Christian countries all my life, it is the "other power" aspect that doesn't sit well with me. I have to admit that I am quite enamored by Guru Rinpoches Pureland (Copper Coloured Mountain) though. Sounds like a cool place to hang in in for a few hundred lifetimes. Thing is though, for me, that everything that needs to be done (or not done), needs to be done right here and right now.

"Other power" is a term that shouldn't be used so much to describe PL as Amida lacks omnipotence. Karma is a big obstacle to achieve birth which is why constant repetition of nembutsu is encouraged from Honen's perspective.
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:22 pm

Nighthawk wrote:"Other power" is a term that shouldn't be used so much to describe PL as Amida lacks omnipotence. Karma is a big obstacle to achieve birth which is why constant repetition of nembutsu is encouraged from Honen's perspective.
Excuse me if I am wrong but isn't it enough (to guarantee rebirth in Dewachen) just to think of Amitabha once with pure faith and devotion? Isn't that one aspect of his vows?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby dharmagoat » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:37 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Excuse me if I am wrong but isn't it enough (to guarantee rebirth in Dewachen) just to think of Amitabha once with pure faith and devotion? Isn't that one aspect of his vows?

So the story goes.
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:29 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:"Other power" is a term that shouldn't be used so much to describe PL as Amida lacks omnipotence. Karma is a big obstacle to achieve birth which is why constant repetition of nembutsu is encouraged from Honen's perspective.
Excuse me if I am wrong but isn't it enough (to guarantee rebirth in Dewachen) just to think of Amitabha once with pure faith and devotion? Isn't that one aspect of his vows?

It's quite possible but I would never advise that to anyone unless they are on their deathbed. Good to build up some significant merit with daily practice as one of the sutras says those with few merits will not take birth there.
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby kirtu » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:26 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Excuse me if I am wrong but isn't it enough (to guarantee rebirth in Dewachen) just to think of Amitabha once with pure faith and devotion? Isn't that one aspect of his vows?

So the story goes.


The last moment of consciousness before death is extremely important and exerts a strong influence over rebirth. So there are stories of murderers being executed who happen to see monks and as a result of an instant of virtuous thought are reborn, become monks and gain some attainment.

As Pure Land doctrine developed, there came to be levels rebirth within Pure Lands based on virtue and realization (this is mentioned in one sutra). Some masters have in fact said that to be reborn even in Dewachen is a bit harder than people think so it's not necessarily just reciting 10 mantras to Amitabha even through that is what the sutras say.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby plwk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:31 pm

Excuse me if I am wrong but isn't it enough (to guarantee rebirth in Dewachen) just to think of Amitabha once with pure faith and devotion? Isn't that one aspect of his vows?
No.... re-read the Primal 18th Vow up until the 20th together with the other two Sutra texts, the Shorter Amitabha & Contemplation on Amitayus Sutras on what gets one into Sukhavati/Dewachen...
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby kirtu » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:34 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:'ccept that I am not a monastic, a tulku, or a Tibetan. But if projecting blame makes you feel better, then please feel free to do so.


:o you ... your not a tulku? Or a Tibetan?? Well, I'll be danged.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby Seishin » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:40 pm

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Re: Is the tulku system too exclusive?

Postby theanarchist » Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:50 pm

I personally think that the tulku system makes sense for vajrayana lineage holders.

SOMEONE has to hold and transmit those lineages and that person has to have some sort of talent for it and has to go through a vigorous training. How do you want to insure that on the long run without such a system?

Why are there so far hardly any western lineage holders? Because even with enough "talent" to archieve realisation relatively quickly our upbringing and lifestyle makes it fairly hard to get realized practitioners. So with the tulku system at least someone will uphold and transmit the tradition, even if the majority of disciples will not develop sufficient realization.

If you find the tulku system is too exclusive then I suggest you become a full time yogi and in the forseeable future we have you as the next lineage holder and of course when you are reborn your faithful disciples will insure that your reincarnation will be found and trained from a young age on.

The tulku system is not exclusive. Anyone, male or female can become a bodhisattva on the bhumis or a buddha and therefor a tulku (word meaning nirmanakaya manifestation). It's more democratic than most other religions.
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