Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:10 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Punya wrote:
Malcolm wrote:We have three kinds of proposed buddhahood in various schools:

gradual -- ala sutra and most Vajrayāna
sudden/non-gradual -- Mahāmudra/Chan
primordial -- Dzogchen.


Sorry to backtrack but why use the word primordial which in everyday english seems to have a time connotation? What is the tibetan word and is there an alternative translation?

I'm sure Malcolm will respond, but I think it is most likely 'gdod ma', or possibly 'thog ma'.


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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:30 pm

I've got this really strong feeling that Dzogchen is a restatement of Zoroastrianism, transmuting the impure matter into light. That's Zoroastrianism. In fact, any talk of a permanent pure land is Zoroastrian. The Five Buddhas might as well be the Yazadas. But to tie this into our topic, how long does one need to be able to rest in rigpa before dying to attain the famous transmutation? Or, is that primordial too? So that as long as you can get someone into rigpa before dying they transmute into light?
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:52 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:I've got this really strong feeling that Dzogchen is a restatement of Zoroastrianism, transmuting the impure matter into light.?



I think you are confusing Zoroastrianism with Manichaeism.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby tatpurusa » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:18 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:I've got this really strong feeling that Dzogchen is a restatement of Zoroastrianism, transmuting the impure matter into light. That's Zoroastrianism. In fact, any talk of a permanent pure land is Zoroastrian. The Five Buddhas might as well be the Yazadas. But to tie this into our topic, how long does one need to be able to rest in rigpa before dying to attain the famous transmutation? Or, is that primordial too? So that as long as you can get someone into rigpa before dying they transmute into light?


Where do you get the idea from, that Dzogchen has anything to do woth transmutation?
This is not the case.
The fabrication recognizing itself as a fabrication, or even recognizing "its" nature of mind or "its true nature" is still a fabrication. Nothing ever transmutes.
All kinds of recognition is still within the trinity of object/subject/action; so called "existing" within time, which in itself depends on mind.
Nature of mind, rigpa and vidyā is not the same as "mind".

The holy trinity of all samsāric experiences is neither existent nor non-existent. It is an abstraction, based on convention-based concepts. As something without an inherent reality, it cannot be preserved by any kind of "transmuting". It is simply irrelevant.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14680&start=20#p196858
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:28 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:I've got this really strong feeling that Dzogchen is a restatement of Zoroastrianism, transmuting the impure matter into light. That's Zoroastrianism. In fact, any talk of a permanent pure land is Zoroastrian. The Five Buddhas might as well be the Yazadas. But to tie this into our topic, how long does one need to be able to rest in rigpa before dying to attain the famous transmutation? Or, is that primordial too? So that as long as you can get someone into rigpa before dying they transmute into light?


Where do you get the idea from, that Dzogchen has anything to do woth transmutation?
This is not the case.
The fabrication recognizing itself as a fabrication, or even recognizing "its" nature of mind or "its true nature" is still a fabrication. Nothing ever transmutes.
All kinds of recognition is still within the trinity of object/subject/action; so called "existing" within time, which in itself depends on mind.
Nature of mind, rigpa and vidyā is not the same as "mind".

The holy trinity of all samsāric experiences is neither existent nor non-existent. It is an abstraction, based on convention-based concepts. As something without an inherent reality, it cannot be preserved by any kind of "transmuting". It is simply irrelevant.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14680&start=20#p196858


Symantics. Impure matter, such as hair and nails, such a reference is Zoroastrian. Say "dissolving" if you want, matter dissolving into light. Matter vanishing into light... Say it how you like, it will still be the words of Holy Prophet Zarathustra who intoned the manthras which vibrate with colors so that your spiritual development will unfold matter into light... In fact, any equating of thought or mind to light is Zoroastrian...
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Mhamudra is primodial too.


Well, parse it out for us then, Greg.

Maitripa states in the Mahāmudrākanakamālā:

In the same way, when not realized, samsara and nirvana are analyzed separately; when realized, samsara has always been the kāya of the great buddha.

But this is a little different.

"1) To have a decisive understanding about the True Nature
Mahamudrahas no causes.
Mahamudra has no conditions.
Mahamudra has no methods.
Mahamudra has no path.
Mahamudra has no result."
Gampopa The Very Essence of Mind, Mahamudra, the One sufficient Path

"6. For thousands of aeons, the sun that shines every day
has never been clouded by darkness.
Likewise, the real nature of the mind's clear light of awareness
Has never been clouded by the cycle of samsara.
12. Never leave Thatness, but don't stay in it either and don't try to represent it.
Simply vow never to leave it, and nothing will obscure the flames [of awakening].
Beyond the reactivity of the [ordinary] mind moving toward and moving away,
not trying to stay,not even trying to see it, then you will see everything there is to see!"
Tilopa Ganges Mahamudra
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Mhamudra is primodial too.


Well, parse it out for us then, Greg.

Maitripa states in the Mahāmudrākanakamālā:

In the same way, when not realized, samsara and nirvana are analyzed separately; when realized, samsara has always been the kāya of the great buddha.

But this is a little different.

"1) To have a decisive understanding about the True Nature
Mahamudrahas no causes.
Mahamudra has no conditions.
Mahamudra has no methods.
Mahamudra has no path.
Mahamudra has no result."
Gampopa The Very Essence of Mind, Mahamudra, the One sufficient Path

"6. For thousands of aeons, the sun that shines every day
has never been clouded by darkness.
Likewise, the real nature of the mind's clear light of awareness
Has never been clouded by the cycle of samsara.
12. Never leave Thatness, but don't stay in it either and don't try to represent it.
Simply vow never to leave it, and nothing will obscure the flames [of awakening].
Beyond the reactivity of the [ordinary] mind moving toward and moving away,
not trying to stay,not even trying to see it, then you will see everything there is to see!"
Tilopa Ganges Mahamudra
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:07 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Mhamudra is primodial too.


Well, parse it out for us then, Greg.

Maitripa states in the Mahāmudrākanakamālā:

In the same way, when not realized, samsara and nirvana are analyzed separately; when realized, samsara has always been the kāya of the great buddha.

But this is a little different.

"1) To have a decisive understanding about the True Nature
Mahamudrahas no causes.
Mahamudra has no conditions.
Mahamudra has no methods.
Mahamudra has no path.
Mahamudra has no result."
Gampopa The Very Essence of Mind, Mahamudra, the One sufficient Path

"6. For thousands of aeons, the sun that shines every day
has never been clouded by darkness.
Likewise, the real nature of the mind's clear light of awareness
Has never been clouded by the cycle of samsara.
12. Never leave Thatness, but don't stay in it either and don't try to represent it.
Simply vow never to leave it, and nothing will obscure the flames [of awakening].
Beyond the reactivity of the [ordinary] mind moving toward and moving away,
not trying to stay,not even trying to see it, then you will see everything there is to see!"
Tilopa Ganges Mahamudra


You should have cited this verse:

Practitioners of mantra, of the perfections,
of discipline, and of the sutras and so on
do not see the luminosity of mahāmudrā,
with their own texts and theories,
luminosity is not seen, obscured with such wishful thinking.


And this:

Beyond all objects of perception, the nature of the mind is clarity,
without a path to traverse, the path of Buddhahood is entered,
if one cultivates without an object of meditation, one will attain unsurpassed awakening.


But even so, this text does not really offer a clear affirmation of primordial buddhahood.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:10 pm

Whatever turns you on dude! :smile:

How about this one?

"Meditation:
why look for freedom in a lie?

The net of illusion:
why hold it so tight?

Trust in the truth
of the precious guru's word;

Saraha says:
I've made my declaration."

or this one:

"No tantra, no mantra,
no reflection or recollection -

Hey fool! All this
is the cause of error.

Mind is unstained -
don't taint it with meditation;

you're living in bliss:
don't torment yourself."
Saraha
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:44 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Whatever turns you on dude! :smile:

How about this one?

"Meditation:
why look for freedom in a lie?

The net of illusion:
why hold it so tight?

Trust in the truth
of the precious guru's word;

Saraha says:
I've made my declaration."

or this one:

"No tantra, no mantra,
no reflection or recollection -

Hey fool! All this
is the cause of error.

Mind is unstained -
don't taint it with meditation;

you're living in bliss:
don't torment yourself."
Saraha


As I said, Saraha is not deluded.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby dude » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:09 pm

[quote="Tsongkhapafan"]Okay...while we're on this subject, I want to ask why Buddhists rely on Dzogchen when it was not taught by Buddha Shakyamuni or Buddha Vajradhara. I'm prepared to be corrected, but to my knowledge Buddha never taught about Rigpa or Dzogchen, or about primordial Buddhahood. There are the Buddhanature teachings in the Third turning of the Wheel of Dharma but these are not definitive, just interpretative. Can anyone explain the definitive source of the Dzogchen teachings and show that they are Buddhist?

Thank you.That's the bottom line, now isn't it?
If it's not the Buddha's teaching, it isn't Buddhism.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby tatpurusa » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:31 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:I've got this really strong feeling that Dzogchen is a restatement of Zoroastrianism, transmuting the impure matter into light. That's Zoroastrianism. In fact, any talk of a permanent pure land is Zoroastrian. The Five Buddhas might as well be the Yazadas. But to tie this into our topic, how long does one need to be able to rest in rigpa before dying to attain the famous transmutation? Or, is that primordial too? So that as long as you can get someone into rigpa before dying they transmute into light?



Where do you get the idea from, that Dzogchen has anything to do woth transmutation?
This is not the case.
The fabrication recognizing itself as a fabrication, or even recognizing "its" nature of mind or "its true nature" is still a fabrication. Nothing ever transmutes.
All kinds of recognition is still within the trinity of object/subject/action; so called "existing" within time, which in itself depends on mind.
Nature of mind, rigpa and vidyā is not the same as "mind".

The holy trinity of all samsāric experiences is neither existent nor non-existent. It is an abstraction, based on convention-based concepts. As something without an inherent reality, it cannot be preserved by any kind of "transmuting". It is simply irrelevant.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14680&start=20#p196858

Symantics.

Do you mean semantics? I haven't fount this word in any dictionary (but I am not an English native speaker..)
Impure matter, such as hair and nails, such a reference is Zoroastrian.


"Matter" might be another case, but the whole notion of "impure" and "pure" is completely Zoroastrian/Manichaean/Western/Judeo/Christian. It has nothing to do with Dzogchen.
Pure and impure visions are both completely irrelevant to the Dzogchen view.

Say "dissolving" if you want, matter dissolving into light. Matter vanishing into light... Say it how you like, it will still be the words of Holy Prophet Zarathustra who intoned the manthras which vibrate with colors so that your spiritual development will unfold matter into light... In fact, any equating of thought or mind to light is Zoroastrian...

Are these ideas by Guru Whisky or Guru Weed? ...they might help with the clarity part ... or was it with the bliss... ?

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14597&start=120#p200274
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:26 pm

Punya wrote:
Malcolm wrote:We have three kinds of proposed buddhahood in various schools:
gradual -- ala sutra and most Vajrayana
sudden/non-gradual -- Mahamudra/Chan
primordial -- Dzogchen.
Sorry to backtrack but why use the word primordial which in everyday english seems to have a time connotation? What is the tibetan word and is there an alternative translation?

From http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/ret/pdf/ret_24_03.pdf, "The Exposition of Atiyoga in gNubs-chen Sangs-rgyas ye-shes’ bSam-gtan mig-sgron" by Dylan Esler:
Here one should recall that in rDzogs-chen, the ground is neither a cosmological basis localizable somewhere, nor is it to be sought in the mind or any of its functions. It refers to the individual’s abiding mode (gnas-lugs), which is both the ground of liberation (grol-gzhi) and of confusion (’khrul-gzhi). 10 Such qualifiers as primordial (ye-nas), original (gdod-ma), alpha (ka-nas) or primeval (thog-ma) do not refer to a golden age long past, but indicate this very abiding mode, which is ever-fresh and ‘prior to’ (in an experiential and phenomenological rather than temporal sense) cyclic existence (Skt. samsara) and transcendence (Skt. nirvana). As the ground of our being and the reason for our being here, this ground is itself not grounded anywhere; being pure dynamics, it has neither a beginning nor an end.

Footnote 10 reads in part as:
As such, the ground is always alpha-pure (ka-dag); it is according to an individual’s recognition or non-recognition of the ground’s illumination (gzhi-snang) that it becomes, in the experience of a Buddha, the ground of liberation (grol-gzhi) and, in the experience of ordinary sentient beings, the ground of confusion.

Of course I don't know if the above is in line with Malcolm's thinking.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:31 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Footnote 10 reads in part as:
As such, the ground is always alpha-pure (ka-dag); it is according to an individual’s recognition or non-recognition of the ground’s illumination (gzhi-snang) that it becomes, in the experience of a Buddha, the ground of liberation (grol-gzhi) and, in the experience of ordinary sentient beings, the ground of confusion.

Of course I don't know if the above is in line with Malcolm's thinking.


I would say that Mr. Esler has a slightly anachronistic read of Nubchen. None of the text available to Nubs, AFAIK, use terms like gzhi snang and so on. In this footnote, at any rate, he is reading the man ngag sde text doctrine into the bodhicitta texts. I would say this is erroneous.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:I would say that Mr. Esler has a slightly anachronistic read of Nubchen. None of the text available to Nubs, AFAIK, use terms like gzhi snang and so on. In this footnote, at any rate, he is reading the man ngag sde text doctrine into the bodhicitta texts. I would say this is erroneous.

OK, that's interesting. Is his statement about grol-gzhi and ’khrul-gzhi accurate then? If so, would it be possible to explain how the bodhicitta texts view of gzhi differ from what he says in his footnote?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:48 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I would say that Mr. Esler has a slightly anachronistic read of Nubchen. None of the text available to Nubs, AFAIK, use terms like gzhi snang and so on. In this footnote, at any rate, he is reading the man ngag sde text doctrine into the bodhicitta texts. I would say this is erroneous.

OK, that's interesting. Is his statement about grol-gzhi and ’khrul-gzhi accurate then? If so, would it be possible to explain how the bodhicitta texts view of gzhi differ from what he says in his footnote?



Yes, in the bodhicitta texts, no distinction is made between the kun gzhi and the gzhi i.e. the all-basis and the basis.

It is true, however that in the bodicitta texts, the all-basis is both the basis of liberation and delusion depending upon whether one has received instructions or not.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:Yes, in the bodhicitta texts, no distinction is made between the kun gzhi and the gzhi i.e. the all-basis and the basis.

It is true, however that in the bodicitta texts, the all-basis is both the basis of liberation and delusion depending upon whether one has received instructions or not.

Right, I remember now you mentioning this somewhere. I believe you explained why this distinction emerged, but I'm not recalling it at the moment.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Caz » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:If the quotation is to true, then it is wrong to say that there is a buddhahood that is already present and always has been.


"[T]o identify a prong of gold, having immersed gold in a pan of water and then boiled it, if it becomes black it is not gold. If it is gold, then it will remain gold. In the same way, the mind of sentient beings has always been dharmatā. That being so, since it is demonstrated as the view, buddhahood is inherently accomplished since it has always been accomplished."

-- The Wheel of Ascertaining the View


How can Buddhahood be Inherently accomplished when it is not manifest ? If it was Inherent as suggested then by nature it would be unchanging and hence never unmanifest yet sentient beings still experience Samsaric suffering and have to work hard to accomplish Enlightenment.

The potentiality is always present but how could Buddhahood be present in the mind of an ordinary being ? :thinking:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:00 pm

Caz wrote:How can Buddhahood be Inherently accomplished when it is not manifest ? If it was Inherent as suggested then by nature it would be unchanging and hence never unmanifest yet sentient beings still experience Samsaric suffering and have to work hard to accomplish Enlightenment.

The potentiality is always present but how could Buddhahood be present in the mind of an ordinary being ? :thinking:

Primordial wisdom [ye shes] is originally pure [ka dag] and naturally perfected [lhun grub], all that is required is recognition. From the standpoint of wisdom the whole charade of samsāra and nirvāna is illusory and unreal.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:36 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:



Where do you get the idea from, that Dzogchen has anything to do woth transmutation?
This is not the case.
The fabrication recognizing itself as a fabrication, or even recognizing "its" nature of mind or "its true nature" is still a fabrication. Nothing ever transmutes.
All kinds of recognition is still within the trinity of object/subject/action; so called "existing" within time, which in itself depends on mind.
Nature of mind, rigpa and vidyā is not the same as "mind".

The holy trinity of all samsāric experiences is neither existent nor non-existent. It is an abstraction, based on convention-based concepts. As something without an inherent reality, it cannot be preserved by any kind of "transmuting". It is simply irrelevant.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14680&start=20#p196858

Symantics.

Do you mean semantics? I haven't fount this word in any dictionary (but I am not an English native speaker..)
Impure matter, such as hair and nails, such a reference is Zoroastrian.


"Matter" might be another case, but the whole notion of "impure" and "pure" is completely Zoroastrian/Manichaean/Western/Judeo/Christian. It has nothing to do with Dzogchen.
Pure and impure visions are both completely irrelevant to the Dzogchen view.

Say "dissolving" if you want, matter dissolving into light. Matter vanishing into light... Say it how you like, it will still be the words of Holy Prophet Zarathustra who intoned the manthras which vibrate with colors so that your spiritual development will unfold matter into light... In fact, any equating of thought or mind to light is Zoroastrian...

Are these ideas by Guru Whisky or Guru Weed? ...they might help with the clarity part ... or was it with the bliss... ?

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14597&start=120#p200274


The fact that the five lights are pure is the whole point... the fact that dzogchen says the elements are impure aspect and the colors are pure aspects of elements is dzogchen... I am on the Whisky and the Weed and I can see very clearly that you are just taking an opportunity to take a cheap shot... I hope it felt good, because that's over with...
invisiblediamond
 
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