Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:13 pm

Invisiblediamond,

You do realize Pakistanis speak Hindi right?

They renamed it something else of course.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:13 pm

OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:I see the core error of InvisibleDiamond.

He doesn't understand geography or borders of pre-1947 India.


These comments are retarded bc I'm talking about PreVedic time.
Last edited by invisiblediamond on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:13 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Z influence bc it's that old and pinioned between both regions.
[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Dude, the ancient Indo-aryan and the Ancient Iranians were enemies. Not friends. They split.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:14 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:My point that evades you is before Hindus were there there was a Vedic culture and PreVedic befor that. These tribes are all still around apparently. Much can be learned about the different stages of history of this region based on the relative primitive ness vs modernity of the tribe. Some dress more arctic, the Brokpa. Some are more warm, Pashtun. With the Brokpa you see feature that resemble every group, even from Caucasian to Native American. If you look into their songs you can see the elements that wee t to Persia and the elements that went to India, and the elements that went to Americas. It's fascinating.


What seems to evade you is that Yoroastrianism and Avesta are not pre-vedic.
Zoroastrianism originates from about 1000 BC, Vedic culture is much older, though only in oral form originally.
Persians and Indo-Aryans were related folks, speaking similar languages (sanskrit has much resemblance with avestic Persian, Avestic language is practically understandable if someone has studied sanskrit), though Vedic sanskrit is from a much older layer than Avestic Persian)
They were both culturally and genetically related but probably adversarial tribes.
This is shown by the names of gods in Avesta : ahura, which corresponds to the asura, demons in Vedic cultures.
Demaons in Avesta on their side were called daevo (of the same origin as the word devil by the way), which corresponds to deva in Vedic culture.
Following the motto "my enemy's god is the devil, my enemy's devil is my god"

So even if you find some other parallels between Persian and Indian cultures, it does not mean that the origin was from Persia.


I don't believe you. Could be much older, by 10,000 years.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:14 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:I see the core error of InvisibleDiamond.

He doesn't understand geography or borders of pre-1947 India.


These comments are retarded bc I'm talking about PreVedic time.


Look, all mythologies come from a common source in Africa 130,000 years ago.

You need to read Witzel's book.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed personal information
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:15 pm

Clarence wrote:What about Daoist influences on Dzogchen? Are there any or is that also speculation? They have those age-less masters and so on.


Mutuality of influences.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:16 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
I don't believe you. Could be much older, by 10,000 years.


Then, inexplicably, you are being a knucklehead. And the above is total new age bullshit fueled by some very strong weed, I am sure.

Ok, I am done with this thread because it has degenerated into total nonsense.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:16 pm

Clarence wrote:What about Daoist influences on Dzogchen? Are there any or is that also speculation? They have those age-less masters and so on.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=12630
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Z influence bc it's that old and pinioned between both regions.
[/quote][/quote]

Dude, the ancient Indo-aryan and the Ancient Iranians were enemies. Not friends. They split.[/quote]

From what? That what is the root cultural bias that DC seems to unwind. Bc once it got to the borderlands with Persia, Z ideas were woven in.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby tatpurusa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:18 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:Long is relative. Nothing predates the PreVedic tribal cultures. They are a measuring stick. Dharma is downright modern in comparison.


Pre-Vedic tribes and cultures are neither Persian nor Indo-Aryan. They heve been in those regions much longer than both.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
I don't believe you. Could be much older, by 10,000 years.


Then, inexplicably, you are being an idiot. And the above is total new age bullshit fueled by some very strong weed, I am sure.

Ok, I am done with this thread because it has degenerated into total nonsense.


Challenging ideas is only nonsense if you are closed up. Z has no trusted start date. Only a range of guesses. What we do know is that ProtoPersian-Vedic tribes are there and they have the rudiments of these ideas. Then Persians develop them in one way and Indians another and over time they cross pollinated each other. This is shocking only to an Idiot.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:23 pm

Hi guys, i've moved the posts on the historical speculation here:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=14919&view=unread#unread
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:I see the core error of InvisibleDiamond.

He doesn't understand geography or borders of pre-1947 India.


These comments are retarded bc I'm talking about PreVedic time.


Look, all mythologies come from a common source in Africa 130,000 years ago.

You need to read Witzel's book.


So where from in Africa do colors amd elements meet? My research makes this a North Central Asian Aryan motif.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed personal information
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:25 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
From what? That what is the root cultural bias that DC seems to unwind. Bc once it got to the borderlands with Persia, Z ideas were woven in.


They split as in "went their separate ways".

Dzogchen is based on Indian Antecedents which then were further developed in Tibet in complete absence of any influence from Zoroastrianism, which by the time period you are talking about. We do not have any record in Tibetan, Chinese or any other language of a major contact between Tibetans and Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians strictly do not proselytize. We do have some evidence of contact between Tibetans and Manichaeans in Khotan however.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10165
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:26 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:So where from in Africa do colors amd elements meet? My research makes this a North Central Asian Aryan motif.


If you go to a local Hindu temple and do an astrological puja, the Brahmin priest may give you rainbow colored threads representing the 5 elements.

One blue thread, one red thread etc.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:30 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
So where from in Africa do colors amd elements meet? My research makes this a North Central Asian Aryan motif.


http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs01 ... 56872.html

Image
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10165
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
From what? That what is the root cultural bias that DC seems to unwind. Bc once it got to the borderlands with Persia, Z ideas were woven in.


They split as in "went their separate ways".

Dzogchen is based on Indian Antecedents which then were further developed in Tibet in complete absence of any influence from Zoroastrianism, which by the time period you are talking about. We do not have any record in Tibetan, Chinese or any other language of a major contact between Tibetans and Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians strictly do not proselytize. We do have some evidence of contact between Tibetans and Manichaeans in Khotan however.


To clarify, DC and Z share unique ideas. This is from some where. If not from Z itself, then from what came before and it was so old it was just like the basic world view, or there was some cross pollination with Persian ascetics who must have crossed paths with Shang Shung meditators. Somehow these ideas stayed in an area and guys messed with them. But guys in Mexico and Africa, not so much.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:33 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
From what? That what is the root cultural bias that DC seems to unwind. Bc once it got to the borderlands with Persia, Z ideas were woven in.


They split as in "went their separate ways".

Dzogchen is based on Indian Antecedents which then were further developed in Tibet in complete absence of any influence from Zoroastrianism, which by the time period you are talking about. We do not have any record in Tibetan, Chinese or any other language of a major contact between Tibetans and Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians strictly do not proselytize. We do have some evidence of contact between Tibetans and Manichaeans in Khotan however.


To clarify, DC and Z share unique ideas. This is from some where. If not from Z itself, then from what came before and it was so old it was just like the basic world view, or there was some cross pollination with Persian ascetics who must have crossed paths with Shang Shung meditators. Somehow these ideas stayed in an area and guys messed with them. But guys in Mexico and Africa, not so much.



If you go to a local Hindu temple and do an astrological puja, the Brahmin priest may give you rainbow colored threads representing the 5 elements.

One blue thread, one red thread, one yellow thread, one green thread, one white thread twisted together.

This is standard Indian Dharma.
Last edited by OddiyanaIsIndia on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby tatpurusa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:35 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:My point that evades you is before Hindus were there there was a Vedic culture and PreVedic befor that. These tribes are all still around apparently. Much can be learned about the different stages of history of this region based on the relative primitive ness vs modernity of the tribe. Some dress more arctic, the Brokpa. Some are more warm, Pashtun. With the Brokpa you see feature that resemble every group, even from Caucasian to Native American. If you look into their songs you can see the elements that wee t to Persia and the elements that went to India, and the elements that went to Americas. It's fascinating.


What seems to evade you is that Yoroastrianism and Avesta are not pre-vedic.
Zoroastrianism originates from about 1000 BC, Vedic culture is much older, though only in oral form originally.
Persians and Indo-Aryans were related folks, speaking similar languages (sanskrit has much resemblance with avestic Persian, Avestic language is practically understandable if someone has studied sanskrit), though Vedic sanskrit is from a much older layer than Avestic Persian)
They were both culturally and genetically related but probably adversarial tribes.
This is shown by the names of gods in Avesta : ahura, which corresponds to the asura, demons in Vedic cultures.
Demaons in Avesta on their side were called daevo (of the same origin as the word devil by the way), which corresponds to deva in Vedic culture.
Following the motto "my enemy's god is the devil, my enemy's devil is my god"

So even if you find some other parallels between Persian and Indian cultures, it does not mean that the origin was from Persia.


I don't believe you. Could be much older, by 10,000 years.


If you had studied Vedic sanskrit (as opposed to classical sanskrit) and Indo-European linguistics, you would recognize that the language of the Vedas represents a much older stratum than the language of Avesta.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
So where from in Africa do colors amd elements meet? My research makes this a North Central Asian Aryan motif.


http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs01 ... 56872.html

Image


They are not saying elements boil down to colors as far as I can see. They are working with the elements as elements.
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