Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Simon E. » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:35 pm

michaelb wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Our primordial condition is atemporal.

Oh, I see. Primordial condition is atemporal, but Dzogchen as a variety of theory and practice is very much set in the temporal history of Indo Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks.


Pretty much.
Indo-Tibetan Buddhism is not of the essence of Dzogchen however.
ChNN has students who are Christian monks and nuns.
They are not required to change religion.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:53 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:But even so, this text does not really offer a clear affirmation of primordial buddhahood.

The Gampopa quote clearly does. Pretty funny when you consider that Gampopa was (for the Karma Kagyu) the "founder" of the whole gradualist approach.


Gampopa taught what he thought was appropriate for his audience.

You must remember however that Gampopa was a Dzogchen practitioner from a young age, as he originally was a Nyingmapa.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:22 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:Okay...while we're on this subject, I want to ask why Buddhists rely on Dzogchen when it was not taught by Buddha Shakyamuni or Buddha Vajradhara. I'm prepared to be corrected, but to my knowledge Buddha never taught about Rigpa or Dzogchen, or about primordial Buddhahood. There are the Buddhanature teachings in the Third turning of the Wheel of Dharma but these are not definitive, just interpretative. Can anyone explain the definitive source of the Dzogchen teachings and show that they are Buddhist?

Thank you.



A bit of a tangent, but I just want the record to be clear that the Third Turning is seen as definitive by some, and interpretive by others. Carry on, this has been, and hopefully continues to be, a good thread.......
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:But even so, this text does not really offer a clear affirmation of primordial buddhahood.

The Gampopa quote clearly does. Pretty funny when you consider that Gampopa was (for the Karma Kagyu) the "founder" of the whole gradualist approach.


Gampopa taught what he thought was appropriate for his audience.

You must remember however that Gampopa was a Dzogchen practitioner from a young age, as he originally was a Nyingmapa.


Sure, and also, important to the Kagyu Stew, he was a Kadampa Monk as well.......and then he met Milarepa.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:46 pm

conebeckham wrote:Sure, and also, important to the Kagyu Stew, he was a Kadampa Monk as well.......and then he met Milarepa.

And that Milarepa tried the Nyingma Dzogchen/sudden path too. It didn't work for him, so that's when he went to go find Marpa.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:29 pm

smcj wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Sure, and also, important to the Kagyu Stew, he was a Kadampa Monk as well.......and then he met Milarepa.

And that Milarepa tried the Nyingma Dzogchen/sudden path too. It didn't work for him, so that's when he went to go find Marpa.


It would have, he just didn't understand the instructions and did not meditate. So Rongton sent him to Marpa.

M
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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Sure, and also, important to the Kagyu Stew, he was a Kadampa Monk as well.......and then he met Milarepa.

And that Milarepa tried the Nyingma Dzogchen/sudden path too. It didn't work for him, so that's when he went to go find Marpa.


It would have, he just didn't understand the instructions and did not meditate. So Rongton sent him to Marpa.

M


Because he did not have Karmic connection with Rongton, but he had connection with Marpa.
(According to the Kagyu POV....your mileage may differ! :smile: )
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:But even so, this text does not really offer a clear affirmation of primordial buddhahood.

The Gampopa quote clearly does. Pretty funny when you consider that Gampopa was (for the Karma Kagyu) the "founder" of the whole gradualist approach.


Gampopa taught what he thought was appropriate for his audience.

You must remember however that Gampopa was a Dzogchen practitioner from a young age, as he originally was a Nyingmapa.


From my research it seems semde and Longde were around at time of early Kagyu. I don't think Togal was known about by them.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:59 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
michaelb wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Our primordial condition is atemporal.

Oh, I see. Primordial condition is atemporal, but Dzogchen as a variety of theory and practice is very much set in the temporal history of Indo Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks.

Mahamudra is Indo-Tibetan,the lineage originates in India from Tilopa, Naropa, Savaripa, Saraha, etc... Garab Dorje,on the other hand, was Persian.


Mahamudra was taught by Buddha Vajradhara, Dzogchen was not, therefore how can Dzogchen be Buddhist? What gives it validity such that it has been incorporated into many Tibetan Buddhist traditions? That may not matter to some people, but it should matter to someone who is following the Buddhist path as there is a refuge commitment not to seek ultimate refuge other than Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Sorry, I'm not being a troll or being confrontational, I'm just asking the question, I have no wish to offend.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:00 am

conebeckham wrote:A bit of a tangent, but I just want the record to be clear that the Third Turning is seen as definitive by some, and interpretive by others. Carry on, this has been, and hopefully continues to be, a good thread.......


Thanks Cone.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:03 am

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Sure, and also, important to the Kagyu Stew, he was a Kadampa Monk as well.......and then he met Milarepa.

And that Milarepa tried the Nyingma Dzogchen/sudden path too. It didn't work for him, so that's when he went to go find Marpa.


It would have, he just didn't understand the instructions and did not meditate. So Rongton sent him to Marpa.

M

That's all well and true, but kind of irrelevant, because the discussion was about Gampopas exposition of the primodial nature of Mahamudra. This view can be found in the teachings of the Indian Mahamudra masters too and they did not practice dzogchen.
"Mind, immaculate by nature, is untouched
By samsaras and nirvanas mud;
But just like a jewel lost in a swamp
Though it retains its lustre it does ot shine."
Saraha

"Those foolish beings who continuously get caught up in negative states of misery andsorrow.
All these sorry folks who wish to be free, need only to depend on the teachers pointing-out instructions."
Tilopa

"The innate above all
is one - Kanha understands it
clearly and well;

folls recite
so many treatises and scriptures,
and know nothing at all."

"When you are motionlessin the innate,
to your innermost royal mind
things taste the same;

ther's perfection in that moment,
and no more fear
of aging or death."
Kanha
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:08 am

Tilopa saying the nature of mind is not tinged by white or black seems to be saying primordial.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:55 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Mahamudra was taught by Buddha Vajradhara, Dzogchen was not, therefore how can Dzogchen be Buddhist? What gives it validity such that it has been incorporated into many Tibetan Buddhist traditions? That may not matter to some people, but it should matter to someone who is following the Buddhist path as there is a refuge commitment not to seek ultimate refuge other than Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Sorry, I'm not being a troll or being confrontational, I'm just asking the question, I have no wish to offend.


We all come from a particular POV, one that has been instilled by our respective institutions and polemics. Many Buddhists, of course, find the idea of a "Buddha Vajradhara" laughable. Ditto, the whole idea of "Three Roots" of Tantra.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:26 am

invisiblediamond wrote:Tilopa saying the nature of mind is not tinged by white or black seems to be saying primordial.

All of the quotes I have supplied thus far point to the primodial nature of Mahamudra, but it seems to me that some of our Dharma brothers and sisters are too blinkered in their views to admit it or they are afraid of losing their supposed ideological monopoly regarding the particular view.

One more and then I am out of here:

"From the start
the sky is pure;

looking and looking,
you only block up the view.

Stopping up the sky
like that,

flawed in his innermost thought,
the fool is uncomprehending."
Saraha
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Lindama » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:47 am

sky gazing... there is no inner most thought
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:14 am

Lindama wrote:sky gazing... there is no inner most thought

Who is your Dzogchen teacher Lindama ?
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Lindama » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:21 am

that was long ago, my first experience which is still alive
but I never had the means to travel...
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby tatpurusa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:10 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:My point that evades you is before Hindus were there there was a Vedic culture and PreVedic befor that. These tribes are all still around apparently. Much can be learned about the different stages of history of this region based on the relative primitive ness vs modernity of the tribe. Some dress more arctic, the Brokpa. Some are more warm, Pashtun. With the Brokpa you see feature that resemble every group, even from Caucasian to Native American. If you look into their songs you can see the elements that wee t to Persia and the elements that went to India, and the elements that went to Americas. It's fascinating.


What seems to evade you is that Zoroastrianism and Avesta are not pre-vedic.
Zoroastrianism originates from about 1000 BC, Vedic culture is much older, though only in oral form originally.
Persians and Indo-Aryans were related folks, speaking similar languages (sanskrit has much resemblance with avestic Persian, Avestic language is practically understandable if someone has studied sanskrit), though Vedic sanskrit is from a much older layer than Avestic Persian)
They were both culturally and genetically related but probably adversarial tribes.
This is shown by the names of gods in Avesta : ahura, which corresponds to the asura, demons in Vedic cultures.
Demaons in Avesta on their side were called daevo (of the same origin as the word devil by the way), which corresponds to deva in Vedic culture.
Following the motto "my enemy's god is the devil, my enemy's devil is my god"

So even if you find some other parallels between Persian and Indian cultures, it does not mean that the origin was from Persia.
Last edited by tatpurusa on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:11 pm

OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:These areas change hands like the winds change directions. To say that these tribal areas are ever under rule is a mere nominal designation not then and not now have these tribals ever been ruled unless they leav the safety of their enclave.



If you are unaware of the LONG history of Dharma in Afghanistan, you are beyond help.


Long is relative. Nothing predates the PreVedic tribal cultures. They are a measuring stick. Dharma is downright modern in comparison.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:11 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.


There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.


Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.

I can imagine no philosophy that differs more fron Dzogchen than does Zoroastrianism. Posited as it is on eternal and fixed Duality.
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