Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Caz » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:56 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Caz wrote:How can Buddhahood be Inherently accomplished when it is not manifest ? If it was Inherent as suggested then by nature it would be unchanging and hence never unmanifest yet sentient beings still experience Samsaric suffering and have to work hard to accomplish Enlightenment.

The potentiality is always present but how could Buddhahood be present in the mind of an ordinary being ? :thinking:

Primordial wisdom [ye shes] is originally pure [ka dag] and naturally perfected [lhun grub], all that is required is recognition. From the standpoint of wisdom the whole charade of samsāra and nirvāna is illusory and unreal.


If its naturally perfected why is it unmanifest ? If it is Primordial and naturally perfected why is there Samsara in the first place ? :thinking:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:14 am

Caz wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Primordial wisdom [ye shes] is originally pure [ka dag] and naturally perfected [lhun grub], all that is required is recognition. From the standpoint of wisdom the whole charade of samsāra and nirvāna is illusory and unreal.


If its naturally perfected why is it unmanifest ? If it is Primordial and naturally perfected why is there Samsara in the first place ? :thinking:

It is manifest, just unrecognized. Samsāra seems to appear due to the non-recognition of wisdom, but like a spinning fire wheel it is just an illusion.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:17 am

What is the difference between primordial and non gradual? Primordial is the reality right? Having that actually become beneficial, that's where it's either gradual or non gradual.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:09 am

invisiblediamond wrote:What is the difference between primordial and non gradual? Primordial is the reality right? Having that actually become beneficial, that's where it's either gradual or non gradual.


Gradual and non-gradual are modes of realization, wisdom is originally pure and is therefore free of such partialities. As described in these statements from Longchenpa shared by Malcolm some time ago:

"Because an object to realize is not established since that ultimate dharmatā is beyond mind, a so called 'realization' in the relative is described to be solely a deluded concept."

And,

"Here, since it is demonstrated there is nothing to be realized, nothing introduced, beyond view and meditation, it is called 'beyond realization and non-realization'."
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:15 am

Caz wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
Caz wrote:How can Buddhahood be Inherently accomplished when it is not manifest ? If it was Inherent as suggested then by nature it would be unchanging and hence never unmanifest yet sentient beings still experience Samsaric suffering and have to work hard to accomplish Enlightenment.

The potentiality is always present but how could Buddhahood be present in the mind of an ordinary being ? :thinking:

Primordial wisdom [ye shes] is originally pure [ka dag] and naturally perfected [lhun grub], all that is required is recognition. From the standpoint of wisdom the whole charade of samsāra and nirvāna is illusory and unreal.


If its naturally perfected why is it unmanifest ? If it is Primordial and naturally perfected why is there Samsara in the first place ? :thinking:


Is samsara there in the first place?

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:21 am

i have no clue about dzogchen yet, but it seems to take a nice shortcut with the mind, and seems very liberating and true. i think some of us have invested so much in our dreams of spiritual life and progress so when dzogchen teachings come and make it simple and say you dont need to do all that work that you can just cut through its too much for us to take. hard to accept. although not that easy to actualize, the dzogchen state of mind.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Caz » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:29 am

Malcolm

Well yes it is to the muddied minds of sentient beings it (samsara) is a very real object.
If it wasn't why would Buddha Manifest to teach its ending ?
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Caz » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:35 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
Caz wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Primordial wisdom [ye shes] is originally pure [ka dag] and naturally perfected [lhun grub], all that is required is recognition. From the standpoint of wisdom the whole charade of samsāra and nirvāna is illusory and unreal.


If its naturally perfected why is it unmanifest ? If it is Primordial and naturally perfected why is there Samsara in the first place ? :thinking:

It is manifest, just unrecognized. Samsāra seems to appear due to the non-recognition of wisdom, but like a spinning fire wheel it is just an illusion.


Is this Rigpa the same as Clear light ? or is it a seperate entity ?
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:36 am

Caz wrote:Malcolm

Well yes it is to the muddied minds of sentient beings it (samsara) is a very real object.


So you grant samsara is not real, is not established etc.?

Is that "muddle" in the minds of sentient beings real or not?

M
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:52 am

Caz wrote:Is this Rigpa the same as Clear light ? or is it a seperate entity ?


That “Mind of” [kyi sems] is the unmixed totally complete essence, the primal nature of the eight consciousnesses endowed with a luminous [‘od gsal] identity which inherently never wavers into any extreme at all, free from all extremes, naturally pure and unwavering in the three times.
Now then, if it is asked “Is it not impossible for such a pure primal nature to appear to the mind of a person?”, it is possible, called “vidyā” [rig pa, the knowing aspect of the mind]. The vidyā of migrating beings itself appears as the mental consciousness in terms of apprehending subjects and apprehended objects. When vidyā manifests its own primal nature, the mental consciousness manifests as self-originated wisdom, and then the pure basis of the mental consciousness (free from the root of an apprehending subject and apprehended objects) bring samsara to an end. The wisdom of one’s vidyā (without root or leaf) — naturally perfected as it all-encompassingly subsumes everything — is the true state [de kho na nyid].

-- The Sun That Illuminates the Meaning

You really ought to read that text by Tsongkhapa that I mentioned to TK fan. It is useless to quote texts to you from the Dzogchen tradition directly in some respects, but you cannot reject the writing of the founder of your own lineage.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:06 am

ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:06 am

Caz wrote:Is this Rigpa the same as Clear light ? or is it a seperate entity ?

(Started this post before I saw Malcolm's reply but figure I'd post this anyway) As far as Clear Light goes I'm not very well versed, but perhaps this will point you in the right direction:

cloudburst wrote:
I wonder if you feel that very subtle mind of clear light and view of Dzogchen are same? If not, what is difference?

Malcolm wrote:
If by "subtle mind of clear light" you mean an "uncontrived momentary awareness" (ma bcos pa shes pa skad cig ma), then the view is similar.

cloudburst wrote:
I suppose I do not know if this is what I mean, as this terminology falls outside my experience. How is this uncontrived momentary awareness different from my moment to moment uncontrived awareness?

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is summed up nicely by "Parting From The Four Attachments "If grasping arises, it is no the view."

(The above is from this thread: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3483)

This also may be helpful:

Clarity, Rigpa and Interpretations of Clear Light:
http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/06/clarity-rigpa-and-interpretations-of.html?m=1
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:41 am

Malcolm wrote:
Caz wrote:You really ought to read that text by Tsongkhapa that I mentioned to TK fan. It is useless to quote texts to you from the Dzogchen tradition directly in some respects, but you cannot reject the writing of the founder of your own lineage.


Thanks Malcolm, I will track down that text. I had a copy of this book many years ago, but I don't remember reading about Dzogchen in it.

My question is, if Tsongkhapa accepted Dzogchen as valid, why didn't he teach it? Why didn't he write a major work on it? Surely he would have if he considered it to be essential for enlightenment.
Last edited by Tsongkhapafan on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Simon E. » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:48 am

Dzogchen was not originally Bon OR Buddhist...it represents the essence of both and precedes both.
Either are adequate to provide a portal to it.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:21 am

Malcolm wrote:But even so, this text does not really offer a clear affirmation of primordial buddhahood.

The Gampopa quote clearly does. Pretty funny when you consider that Gampopa was (for the Karma Kagyu) the "founder" of the whole gradualist approach.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:27 am

Malcolm wrote:
Caz wrote:Is this Rigpa the same as Clear light ? or is it a seperate entity ?


That “Mind of” [kyi sems] is the unmixed totally complete essence, the primal nature of the eight consciousnesses endowed with a luminous [‘od gsal] identity which inherently never wavers into any extreme at all, free from all extremes, naturally pure and unwavering in the three times.
Now then, if it is asked “Is it not impossible for such a pure primal nature to appear to the mind of a person?”, it is possible, called “vidyā” [rig pa, the knowing aspect of the mind]. The vidyā of migrating beings itself appears as the mental consciousness in terms of apprehending subjects and apprehended objects. When vidyā manifests its own primal nature, the mental consciousness manifests as self-originated wisdom, and then the pure basis of the mental consciousness (free from the root of an apprehending subject and apprehended objects) bring samsara to an end. The wisdom of one’s vidyā (without root or leaf) — naturally perfected as it all-encompassingly subsumes everything — is the true state [de kho na nyid].

-- The Sun That Illuminates the Meaning


Thanks, Malcolm. Coming across such gems is what makes reading Buddhist internet forums worthwile.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby michaelb » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:29 am

Simon E. wrote:Dzogchen was not originally Bon OR Buddhist...it represents the essence of both and precedes both.
Either are adequate to provide a portal to it.
Are you saying Dzogchen historically predates Buddhism and Bon? Do you have any proof of that?
Thanks.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Simon E. » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:37 am

Our primordial condition is atemporal.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby michaelb » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:23 pm

Simon E. wrote:Our primordial condition is atemporal.

Oh, I see. Primordial condition is atemporal, but Dzogchen as a variety of theory and practice is very much set in the temporal history of Indo Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks.
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