Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

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Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:So when student meets master, there will be no further passage of time between that and buddhahood?


You should start another thread.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:36 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:So when student meets master, there will be no further passage of time between that and buddhahood?


You should start another thread.


Teachers are there to point out a buddhahood that is already present and always has been, as it states in the Inner Great Potentiality of Bodhicitta [byang chub kyi sems rtsal chen sprugs pa]:

Buddhas and sentient beings are nondual,
how could there be fabrication with a path?


However, a proper guru is indispensible, from the same text:

Without an authentic master, like the scripture of a monkey,
the basis and path will be erroneous, indeed one will be seized by conceptuality.


M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby muni » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Teachers are there to point out a buddhahood that is already present and always has been, as it states in the Inner Great Potentiality of Bodhicitta [byang chub kyi sems rtsal chen sprugs pa]:

Buddhas and sentient beings are nondual,
where can there be fabrication with a path?


However, a proper guru is indispensible, from the same text:

Without an authentic master, like the scripture of a monkey,
the basis and path will be erroneous, indeed one will be seized by conceptuality.


M


:good:

Few lines of aspiration prayer:

"May it be seen through the power of the Lama's pith instructions!
Elaborating and analyzing is just an additional to conceptual thoughts".

"Although there is no seeing of what is indescribable and incomprehensible
There is nothing remainder that is left behind which has not been seen". _ /\ _
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:Teachers are there to point out a buddhahood that is already present and always has been,

Is buddhahood = enlighten state? If yes, does this mean that an enlightenment state can be obscured? If so, when one becomes a buddha, what is there to prevent one's enlighten state from being obscured again? If it cannot be obscured, why is it that our original enlighten state can be obscured?
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:12 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Teachers are there to point out a buddhahood that is already present and always has been,

Is buddhahood = enlighten state? If yes, does this mean that an enlightenment state can be obscured? If so, when one becomes a buddha, what is there to prevent one's enlighten state from being obscured again? If it cannot be obscured, why is it that our original enlighten state can be obscured?



The erroneous path of the mind that places hope for a result from any virtue, perfections, samaya, practice of accomplishment and so on are said to be deviations from the great vehicle without effort. Now then, if one proposes a cause of realization, because the absence of any activity and the absence of thought are a conducive cause, vidyā is held to arise from within. Since there are many thoughts due to activities, this is not a cause [of realization], again there is obscuration because of many perceptions.

-- The Commentary of the Inner Great Potentiality of The Great Perfection

While we can respect the notion of buddhahood from gathering two accumulations, Dzogchen practitioners do not believe it. Nevertheless, we also do dedications and so on, but from a different POV.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby LastLegend » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:34 pm

Nongradual. What does that mean?
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NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:39 pm

LastLegend wrote:Nongradual. What does that mean?


The title is not really quite right, it should be "Dzogchen: Primordial Buddhahood?"
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Teachers are there to point out a buddhahood that is already present and always has been,

Is buddhahood = enlighten state? If yes, does this mean that an enlightenment state can be obscured? If so, when one becomes a buddha, what is there to prevent one's enlighten state from being obscured again? If it cannot be obscured, why is it that our original enlighten state can be obscured?



The erroneous path of the mind that places hope for a result from any virtue, perfections, samaya, practice of accomplishment and so on are said to be deviations from the great vehicle without effort. Now then, if one proposes a cause of realization, because the absence of any activity and the absence of thought are a conducive cause, vidyā is held to arise from within. Since there are many thoughts due to activities, this is not a cause [of realization], again there is obscuration because of many perceptions.

-- The Commentary of the Inner Great Potentiality of The Great Perfection

While we can respect the notion of buddhahood from gathering two accumulations, Dzogchen practitioners do not believe it. Nevertheless, we also do dedications and so on, but from a different POV.
The quote does not answer sherab's question. I personally would "dumb down" the question and simply ask: are you currently enlightened?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:35 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:The quote does not answer sherab's question. I personally would "dumb down" the question and simply ask: are you currently enlightened?


It precisely answers his question.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:39 pm

I didn't ask what the commentary says, I can see what it says, I asked: are YOU currently enlightened?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Virgo » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:47 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:I didn't ask what the commentary says, I can see what it says, I asked: are YOU currently enlightened?

Is that a proper kind of questions to ask?

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:48 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:I didn't ask what the commentary says, I can see what it says, I asked: are YOU currently enlightened?


There is no buddhahood apart from rigpa. So when I am I am, and when I am not, I am not. In other words, everyone can have that experience of awakening, even if they are an "ordinary person", like me, and presumably you.

In any event, that is not really the point. The point is that awakening is fundamental feature of sentient beings. Whether or not they can access that state depends solely on whether they have access to a proper guru, introduction and confidence.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Simon E. » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:I didn't ask what the commentary says, I can see what it says, I asked: are YOU currently enlightened?


There is no buddhahood apart from rigpa. So when I am I am, and when I am not, I am not. In other words, everyone can have that experience of awakening, even if they are an "ordinary person", like me, and presumably you.

In any event, that is not really the point. The point is that awakening is fundamental feature of sentient beings. Whether they can access that state depends solely on whether they have access to a proper guru and introduction.


:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Adamantine » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Teachers are there to point out a buddhahood that is already present and always has been,

Is buddhahood = enlighten state? If yes, does this mean that an enlightenment state can be obscured? If so, when one becomes a buddha, what is there to prevent one's enlighten state from being obscured again? If it cannot be obscured, why is it that our original enlighten state can be obscured?



The erroneous path of the mind that places hope for a result from any virtue, perfections, samaya, practice of accomplishment and so on are said to be deviations from the great vehicle without effort. Now then, if one proposes a cause of realization, because the absence of any activity and the absence of thought are a conducive cause, vidyā is held to arise from within. Since there are many thoughts due to activities, this is not a cause [of realization], again there is obscuration because of many perceptions.

-- The Commentary of the Inner Great Potentiality of The Great Perfection

While we can respect the notion of buddhahood from gathering two accumulations, Dzogchen practitioners do not believe it. Nevertheless, we also do dedications and so on, but from a different POV.


I really appreciate this excerpt: is it your translation?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Teachers are there to point out a buddhahood that is already present and always has been,

Is buddhahood = enlighten state? If yes, does this mean that an enlightenment state can be obscured? If so, when one becomes a buddha, what is there to prevent one's enlighten state from being obscured again? If it cannot be obscured, why is it that our original enlighten state can be obscured?



The erroneous path of the mind that places hope for a result from any virtue, perfections, samaya, practice of accomplishment and so on are said to be deviations from the great vehicle without effort. Now then, if one proposes a cause of realization, because the absence of any activity and the absence of thought are a conducive cause, vidyā is held to arise from within. Since there are many thoughts due to activities, this is not a cause [of realization], again there is obscuration because of many perceptions.

-- The Commentary of the Inner Great Potentiality of The Great Perfection

While we can respect the notion of buddhahood from gathering two accumulations, Dzogchen practitioners do not believe it. Nevertheless, we also do dedications and so on, but from a different POV.

If the quotation is to true, then it is wrong to say that there is a buddhahood that is already present and always has been. I interpret the quotation to mean that there is a true reality to be realized. The difference between buddhahood and non-buddhahood lies in whether there is that realization. So it is the true reality that is always present and always has been and not buddhahood. That true reality is dzog pa chen po, that which is to be realized.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Simon E. » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:45 pm

Realised by whom ?
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:50 pm

Simon E. wrote:Realised by whom ?

By sentient beings.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:58 pm

From the Udana:
There is, monks, an unborn—unbecome—unmade—unfabricated. If there were not that unborn—unbecome—unmade—unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born—become—made—fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn—unbecome—unmade—unfabricated, escape from the born—become—made—fabricated is discerned.

I've always like this utterance of the Buddha as it seemed that the Buddha is pointing to a true reality to be realized that is beyond cause and effect. That means it is not something that can be reached by effort for effort implies cause and effect.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby smcj » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:07 pm

If the quotation is to true, then it is wrong to say that there is a buddhahood that is already present and always has been. I interpret the quotation to mean that there is a true reality to be realized.

There is no contradiction if you simply say that realization is retroactive. Once realized you see that it was there all along. From that perspective you can get masters like Huang Po saying, "There is no difference between sentient beings and Buddhas." But without realization there is something to be done, even if it takes non-doing to do it.

I base this idea on the story of Asanga doing 12 years of practice before Maitreya appeared to him. When Maritreya did appear, Asanga asked him, "Where have you been this whole time?" Maitreya said, "I've been right here all along, but because of your karma you haven't been able to see me."

I've always like this utterance of the Buddha as it seemed that the Buddha is pointing to a true reality to be realized that is beyond cause and effect. That means it is not something that can be reached by effort for effort implies cause and effect.

I call that "transcendent", but I know that freaks a lot of people out.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:There is no buddhahood apart from rigpa. So when I am I am, and when I am not, I am not. In other words, everyone can have that experience of awakening, even if they are an "ordinary person", like me, and presumably you.

In any event, that is not really the point. The point is that awakening is fundamental feature of sentient beings. Whether or not they can access that state depends solely on whether they have access to a proper guru, introduction and confidence.

That's quite a smoke screen but it seems to me to be a long winded way of just saying "No!". This though seems to point to two conclusions: Either Dzogchen doesn't "work" ( it doesn't live up to its reputation of instantaneous liberation) OR it is actually a gradual path that requires its practitioners to work with their mind in order to realize their true nature. Anyway, as it has been said countless times this concept of non-gradual seems to completely disregard the previous infinte lives one has lived to arrive at liberationt "here and now".
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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