Origins of Amitabha

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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Huifeng » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:30 pm

Nosta wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Ryoto wrote:Well according to most scholars the Mahayana sutras are rejected as containing authentic words from Shakyamuni, but that's a whole other discussion. It is a possibility that the Pure Land sutras were written by a high level Bodhisattva instead.


Rejected is probably too strong a word, although some do indeed reject these sutras (look around the scholarship for the concept of "Protestant Buddhism").

A common view: The Mahayana sutras represent the authentic teaching of the Buddha. It's very unlikely that the words recorded in Sanskrit (or Chinese...) and attributed to Shakyamuni Buddha were uttered by him in exactly the way presented by the texts. So it's possible to accept the Surangama Sutra as authentic Dharma, without needing to assume it is a transcription of a discourse given by Shakyamuni Buddha on the occasion of Ananda's struggling with distraction, for instance. Same for the Pure Land sutras.



But how can we accept such Dharma as real if didnt came from Buddha? How can we be sure thats a real and valid teaching?


Having been personally spoken by Gautama the Buddha himself has almost never been a criteria for "real and valid teaching[s]".
Even the sutras of the early schools include as canonical teachings given by others, eg. Ananda, Sariputra.

The criteria is whether or not it leads to liberation, which itself includes conformity to the principles of Buddhism.
Eg. as in the case of the Prajnaparamita, that it "conforms to the nature of Dharma".

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:07 pm

the Pureland can be found in the pali canon so its not from any other religion also the comparisons of amitayus and azura mazda are way off.
in truth uts easier to look closer to home in hinduism their are many gods and many of them were had peacocks around them like amitayus.

simply said though the pureland can be found even in the supposed oldest documents of Buddhism, also amitabha Buddha has a deep indian story line to it not an arabic(although amitabha Buddha was the most liked by arabs and indians alike)i think vairocana made a huge scene in afghanistan.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Mr. G » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:27 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:the Pureland can be found in the pali canon...


No, it's not. Citation please.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:08 am

I think he was referring to the Pure Abodes which have some similarities.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:33 am

hey mister G i was in fact refering to the pure abodes. also the pure abodes and the pureland are the same thing. the pure abodes translated into the pureland from india to the asians. but they are refernece to the same things

you are reborn as a god in the pure abodes vow 26 (vajra god)(of amida Buddha)they are a place of none retrogression,where you can stay and reach enlightenment

in the majjhima nikaya the paths of transmigation is HELL,ghosts,animals,humans,(samsara)god,pure abodes/pureland) found in majjhima nikaya sutta mahasihanada 12 also (bodhiku bodhi) verse 57-58 to be a god in the pure abode.

]same book sutta dhatuvibhanga sutta verse36 Pukkusati dies and goes to the pure abodes and not the heavenly god realm because the pureabodes is distinctily Buddhist.

also look at the digha nikaya mahaparinibbana sutta verse 2.7 Buddha visits the pure abodes bfore he dies.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:39 am

Ryoto wrote:I think he was referring to the Pure Abodes which have some similarities.


hey ryoto yea i was refering to the pure abodes,when the pure abodes was translated thru laungueges it was called pureland (abodes and land) having the same meaning check out the agamas

although they are the same their is differnces bettween them from thervadan to mahayana

for instance to get into the pureabodes u need to destroy the 5 fetters in the pureland sutras of amitabha you need watch out for tyhe 5 burnings

the 5 fetters and 5 burnings are refering to the same thing although the mahayana version is more lax in the entry of the pureland

both maintain FAITH is the main process of entry though.

peace and love check out the 5 burnings and 5 fetters to see the similarities. also look up the translations of pureabode to pureland its pretty neat.

peace and love
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby plwk » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:52 am

the Pureland can be found in the pali canon...


No, it's not. Citation please.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are Arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.
"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.
"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.
"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

Also known as Aviha, Atappa, Sudassa (Suddhavasa), Sudassi and Akanittha: 1 2 3

There are some Theravadins I know who make aspirations and practice to be born in Tusita Heaven where the future Buddha, Metteyya Bodhisatta (Maitreya Bodhisattva) is now and also to be born in his teaching assembly where he will be in the future as a Samma Sambuddha (Samyak Sambuddha) although this is a non-canonical and personal piety/practice. What is canonical though is that all future Buddhas will take the second last birth in Tusita Heaven and their assured attainment of Buddhahood in their last birth.

Then, there is this curious discussion here
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Mr. G » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:34 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:hey mister G i was in fact refering to the pure abodes. also the pure abodes and the pureland are the same thing. the pure abodes translated into the pureland from india to the asians. but they are refernece to the same things
you are reborn as a god in the pure abodes vow 26 (vajra god)(of amida Buddha)they are a place of none retrogression,where you can stay and reach enlightenment
in the majjhima nikaya the paths of transmigation is HELL,ghosts,animals,humans,(samsara)god,pure abodes/pureland) found in majjhima nikaya sutta mahasihanada 12 also (bodhiku bodhi) verse 57-58 to be a god in the pure abode.
same book sutta dhatuvibhanga sutta verse36 Pukkusati dies and goes to the pure abodes and not the heavenly god realm because the pureabodes is distinctily Buddhist.
also look at the digha nikaya mahaparinibbana sutta verse 2.7 Buddha visits the pure abodes bfore he dies.


Son of Buddha wrote:
Ryoto wrote:I think he was referring to the Pure Abodes which have some similarities.

hey ryoto yea i was refering to the pure abodes,when the pure abodes was translated thru laungueges it was called pureland (abodes and land) having the same meaning check out the agamas
although they are the same their is differnces bettween them from thervadan to mahayana
for instance to get into the pureabodes u need to destroy the 5 fetters in the pureland sutras of amitabha you need watch out for tyhe 5 burnings
the 5 fetters and 5 burnings are refering to the same thing although the mahayana version is more lax in the entry of the pureland
both maintain FAITH is the main process of entry though.
peace and love check out the 5 burnings and 5 fetters to see the similarities. also look up the translations of pureabode to pureland its pretty neat.
peace and love


plwk wrote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are Arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.
"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.
"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.
"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

Also known as Aviha, Atappa, Sudassa (Suddhavasa), Sudassi and Akanittha: 1 2 3

There are some Theravadins I know who make aspirations and practice to be born in Tusita Heaven where the future Buddha, Metteyya Bodhisatta (Maitreya Bodhisattva) is now and also to be born in his teaching assembly where he will be in the future as a Samma Sambuddha (Samyak Sambuddha) although this is a non-canonical and personal piety/practice. What is canonical though is that all future Buddhas will take the second last birth in Tusita Heaven and their assured attainment of Buddhahood in their last birth.

Then, there is this curious discussion here


Hi Son of Buddha & plwk,

The pure abodes do not equal the Pure Land. The pure abodes are still within samsara. The Pure Land is outside of the three realms (arupa, rupa & kama loka). Yes, Maitreya is in Tushita heaven. However, that is a heaven, it is not Pure Land. Ordinary people with afflictions cannot get to Tushita heaven. Ordinary people with afflictions can get to Sukhavati. According to Indian cosmology, Tushita is one of the heavens of the desire realm within the saha world-realm (lokadhatu), the "realm" where we dwell. However, Sukhavati exists far beyond the saha world-realm. The lifespan of Tusita lasts 4000 heaven years, Sukhavati is limitless:

For those who wish to become buddhas swiftly, it is necessary to pray for rebirth in a pure buddha-field. There are differing fields beyond number, and it has been declared that they are difficult to delimit in speech. Among them, in order to be born in the other superior fields excepting Sukhavati, you must attain at least the eight bhumi, having entirely cut off the two obscurations. Even to be born in the middling fields, you must entirely cut off even the most subtle aspects of the obscuration of the afflictions and attain at least the first moment on the path of contemplative cultivation. And for even the least of the fields, you must cut off attachment to self from the roots, and attain the path of seeing, that is, selflessness, the real truth. Until you've attained the path of seeing, though you pray for re-birth in a buddha-field, you'll not achieve it. But even without attaining the path of seeing, should you strive at prayer, while not engaging even in the most subtle disciplinary faults with respect to your commitments and moral training, and purifying sins and gathering the profits of virtue, you may just be born in some of the trifling fields such as Tusita, and even that will be difficult. Because in those fields there is no room for the births of common, ordinary persons (prthagjana), who wallow in the afflictions, from now on you must pray at length! Therefore, it would seem that afflicted, common persons will not be born in the field of a buddha. Nevertheless, through the power of Buddha Amitabha's prayers, birth in the Sukhavati field has been vouchsafed by lord Amitabha himself - Machig Labdron
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby plwk » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:38 pm

Agreed Mr G.

A Pure Land does not equal to what is contained in samsaric heavenly places (at least from a Mahayana POV) and a mistake to even compare the glorious Sukhavati to 'mirage' versions of it but what I was alluding to was the near similar ideas of an ideal place to retreat to for continuation of stabilising practice to attain liberation as found in earlier Buddhist sources, as brought up by son of buddha and my sources were squarely on what Pali sources (I believe the Agamas have it too) have as the nearest though not exact comparison to the idea of a Pure Land.

However if you think of it, the inhabitants of the Suddhavasa/Akanishta heavens within the realm of form came about from the karmas of the Sravaka Aryas who use that platform to continue their progress towards sainthood as a means to gain perfection and not to frolic around like the lower rungs though it may still not be the most 'ideal'. So these devas are unlike the samsaric ones...they encourage Buddha Dharma practice.

Even when mentioning on the case of the Inner Court of Tusita and the future Pure Land of Maitreya, there seems to be 2 POVs:
one stating that only through excellent practice of dhyana / samadhi can one hope to enter into the inner circle of Maitreya Bodhisattva and most would end up frolicking with the samsaric devas in the Outer Court and amass great merit and virtue to be in his future teaching assembly or Pure Land.

Yet the second opinion as mentioned in my reply to ryoto in his thread on Maitreya as taken from the late Ven Master Yin Shun's 'The Way to Buddhahood' is that it's a near similar one like Buddha recitation, upholding one's refuge vows and threefold practice of sila, samadhi and prajna, making vows for rebirth there, reciting his name and etc.. that the assertion of the first instance as above, as he opines with Sutra citations and on page 105 seems to think that it is just ulterior motive on the part of some and goes on to assert if it was so, why was nothing mentioned in biographies of those who promote Maitreya such as Aryas Paramartha, Asanga, Vasubandhu and Tripitaka Master Xuan Zang on these 'difficulties'?

:focus:
I am digressing from the original thread but as my earlier reply in this thread remains: my source for understanding and practicing what Sakyamuni taught on Amitabha and His Sukhavati is as what the Threefold Sukhavati Sutras and related Sutras & Sastras contains. What others wanna think is what they are most welcomed to.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby kirtu » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:01 pm

Food_Eatah wrote:The Dharma ENding age :(

The lack of faith will be the worst hinderance to the practice :(


But faith will awaken for some people with past roots or some people who's minds are receptive.

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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby kirtu » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:07 pm

plwk wrote:There are some Theravadins I know who make aspirations and practice to be born in Tusita Heaven where the future Buddha, Metteyya Bodhisatta (Maitreya Bodhisattva) is now and also to be born in his teaching assembly where he will be in the future as a Samma Sambuddha (Samyak Sambuddha) although this is a non-canonical and personal piety/practice.


WOW! That's interesting and quite logical.

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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:53 am

hey mister g man

actually not quite in the majjhima nikaya(i used to be thervadan before i became mayahana) the pure abodes is a realm of gods JUST like amitayus pureland(we are reborn as gods in amitayus pureland as his vow we will all receive vajra god bodies)

in sources i posted in the pali in samsarasan we will be reborn in either hell,ghosts,animnals,human,gods these are the realms of samsdara the PUREABODES is seperated from the 5 transmigations and is given its own realm (strictly for Buddhists with faith)(the desrtuction of the fetter of DOUBT)(true faith)

the pure abodes is a palce of non-retrogression just like mahayana pureland it is a place where you go and are NEVER reborn back to samsara it is a resting place for people tilll they become enlightened there.

the other source i gave you was of a laity man who died (killed by a cow) and was reborn in the pure abodes to stay till he became a Buddha.

the pureland and pureabodes is the same thing (abodes) TRANSLATES to (land) from sanscrit to the chinese launguge(pureland/pureabodes)
so the pureland can be found in the pali canon in every single nikaya the only thing that is different is the 5 fetters must be desroyed and the mahayana warns of the 5 burnings (same things) the amitayaus pureland is easier to get into.

so the foundation of pureland can be found in all Buddhist suttas/sutras
(amitayus cannot be found in tbhe pali canon but the pureloand(abodes) can be found in them.

peace and love
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:00 am

In order to be reborn in the pure abodes one must be a never-returner.

N


Son of Buddha wrote:hey mister g man

actually not quite in the majjhima nikaya(i used to be thervadan before i became mayahana) the pure abodes is a realm of gods JUST like amitayus pureland(we are reborn as gods in amitayus pureland as his vow we will all receive vajra god bodies)

in sources i posted in the pali in samsarasan we will be reborn in either hell,ghosts,animnals,human,gods these are the realms of samsdara the PUREABODES is seperated from the 5 transmigations and is given its own realm (strictly for Buddhists with faith)(the desrtuction of the fetter of DOUBT)(true faith)

the pure abodes is a palce of non-retrogression just like mahayana pureland it is a place where you go and are NEVER reborn back to samsara it is a resting place for people tilll they become enlightened there.

the other source i gave you was of a laity man who died (killed by a cow) and was reborn in the pure abodes to stay till he became a Buddha.

the pureland and pureabodes is the same thing (abodes) TRANSLATES to (land) from sanscrit to the chinese launguge(pureland/pureabodes)
so the pureland can be found in the pali canon in every single nikaya the only thing that is different is the 5 fetters must be desroyed and the mahayana warns of the 5 burnings (same things) the amitayaus pureland is easier to get into.

so the foundation of pureland can be found in all Buddhist suttas/sutras
(amitayus cannot be found in tbhe pali canon but the pureloand(abodes) can be found in them.

peace and love
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:16 am

hey mister G

also i forgot to write that their are MANY purelands and pureabode in mahayana/thervadan
and all the purelands(abodes) are different from one anouther amitayus pureland is the perfect pureland with the perfect vows

some may chose medicine masters pureland burning lights pureland,askoybos pureland amitayus pureland shakyamunis pureland,many may chose whatever pureland they chose

although i agree amitayus pureland is the best one may go with the affliction of this life,and not be able to the other purelands unless they destroy the 5 fetters of keep a pure mind BUT that still doesnt take away from the fact their are many different pureland in mahayana,also as in thervadan their are pureland(pureabodes)
they may be differnt but they all exist within both schools of Buddhism.

peace and love :cheers:
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:21 am

hey namdrol

no thats incorrect a once returner comes back to the realms of human one more time
one who goes to the pureabodes/pureland is a (NONE RETURNER) who will not return to samsarasan but will stay in the pureabodes till he reaches enlightenment he stays in a state of non retrogression.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:23 am

Son of Buddha wrote:hey namdrol

no thats incorrect a once returner comes back to the realms of human one more time
one who goes to the pureabodes/pureland is a (NONE RETURNER) who will not return to samsarasan but will stay in the pureabodes till he reaches enlightenment he stays in a state of non retrogression.


You just agreed with what I said, only anagamins (never returners) can take birth in the pure abodes. They are still part of the triple realm however, because one has not eradicated all anusayas.

N
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:25 am

anyone who is born in the pureabodes/pureland is a NON RETURNER they dont have to return unless they want to this is the same for thervadan and mahayana Buddhism
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Mr. G » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:29 am

Hi Son of Buddha:

Son of Buddha wrote:
actually not quite in the majjhima nikaya(i used to be thervadan before i became mayahana) the pure abodes is a realm of gods JUST like amitayus pureland(we are reborn as gods in amitayus pureland as his vow we will all receive vajra god bodies)


The pure abodes are a heavenly realm. Amitayus/Amitabha's Pure Land is outside of the three realms (including heavenly realms).

the pure abodes is a palce of non-retrogression just like mahayana pureland it is a place where you go and are NEVER reborn back to samsara it is a resting place for people tilll they become enlightened there.


As Namdrol stated, that is for never-returners.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

the pureland and pureabodes is the same thing (abodes) TRANSLATES to (land) from sanscrit to the chinese launguge(pureland/pureabodes)


The term "Pure Land" is an English rendering of a Chinese term jing-tu (Jpn. jodo), which has no one determinative Sanskrit original. Chinese translators, including Kumarajiva are believed to have coined the term based on the concept of "purfication of the land," which found expression in such Sanskrit terms as buddhaksetra parisuddhi (purification of the buddha land), parisuddham buddhasetram (purified buddha land) and ksetram parisodhyatai (to purify the land).

- Kenneth Tanaka - Where is the Pure Land?

anyone who is born in the pureabodes/pureland is a NON RETURNER they dont have to return unless they want to this is the same for thervadan and mahayana Buddhism


You have have to cut the necessary afflictions to get to a pure abode though:

"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

You don't have to cut any fetters to get to a a Pure Land...at best acquire the three faiths.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:30 am

hey namdrol
You just agreed with what I said, only anagamins (never returners) can take birth in the pure abodes. They are still part of the triple realm however, because one has not eradicated all anusayas.

N[/quote]

then the same can be said about those in amitayus pureland because they are not enlightened they have not eradicated all unusayas they are also still apart of the triple realm.

even in amitayus pureland we have to do the leg work to become enlightened we have the purebodies but we are not yet enlightened

the same goes for the pureabodes you receive the body of the gods but u are yet to become enlightened you still havev the last 5 fetters to destroy.

either way you are not born a Buddha you stil have not reached FULL enlightenemnt in either thervadan or mahayana pureland/pure abodes.
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Re: Origins of Amitabha

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:41 am

the pureabode isnt apart of the 3 realms of samsarasan its a place of NON RETURN NONE RETROGRESSION,

majjhima nikaya mahasihanada sutta 12 the pureabodes is not apart of the 5 transmigations of rebirth in fact once u get to the pureabodes u dont EVER have to be reborn again verse57-59
also even in mahayana purelands and births their are DIFFERENT medicine Buddhas vows are differnt than amitayus,also in the lotus sutra shakyamnuni states you need to have a
"faithfull upright,gentle in intent" to see eagle peak many pureland have differnt various ways of entry
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