Ancient Buddhas

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:20 pm

Aemilius wrote:This field requires time, and time is very precious, we seldom have time for what we don't actually like. So very likely You are not going find out how much material there exists under the title Forbidden Archaeology.
But there are several hours of good videos about Forbidden Archeology, where you can see and hear what happens to archeologists who actually found some of these things: How their careers came to an end abruptly, just because they didn't start lying about what they had found. Maybe there are some who where not so honest, who didn't want that their many years of studies should become wasted so suddenly! And who, as a result, became famous in official archeology?


Show me one.
This field doesn't require time. It has time.
What it requires is some kind of proof.

All that you are saying (again!) is, essentially,

Something might be true if you believe it's true
and if there is no real evidence that is is true
that doesn't make any difference.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:38 pm

Anyway, you are missing the whole point of this.
If you say a buddha lives for 10,000 years, or 20,000, or whatever, and then ceases,
you negate the basic quality that enlightened mind is free from all concepts of space and time,
which means that you would have to establish a cause for the cessation of that Buddha.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby Aemilius » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:45 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Aemilius wrote:This field requires time, and time is very precious, we seldom have time for what we don't actually like. So very likely You are not going find out how much material there exists under the title Forbidden Archaeology.
But there are several hours of good videos about Forbidden Archeology, where you can see and hear what happens to archeologists who actually found some of these things: How their careers came to an end abruptly, just because they didn't start lying about what they had found. Maybe there are some who where not so honest, who didn't want that their many years of studies should become wasted so suddenly! And who, as a result, became famous in official archeology?


Show me one.
This field doesn't require time. It has time.
What it requires is some kind of proof.

All that you are saying (again!) is, essentially,

Something might be true if you believe it's true
and if there is no real evidence that is is true
that doesn't make any difference.


There are some good videos about the forbidden archaeology in the Youtube, I tried to provide a link to one of them, but it turned out to be impossible for some strange reason(?) It seems that You'll have to find the material Yourself, if You are interested in it. There really is proof, I would say, definitely.

"Real evidence" is a cultural habit. It is something that depends on the habit of authority in a human society. This means that something that is true in Your social circle is not a truth in the society of eskimos, or a truth in the society of australian aboriginals, a truth in a society afghanistan people, and so on, almost endlessly..
Naturally and instinctively You will think that your truth, in your social cirle, is a real truth and the truths in other human societies are merely 'myths' or 'propaganda', etc..

Truth is a sociological phenomenon. This means that it depends on the sense perception of human beings, it depends on the consciousness and memory of human beings, on the level of morality of human beings, on the laws of social behaviour among human beings, on the political interests of larger human social units, and so on..
Last edited by Aemilius on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby Aemilius » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:53 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Anyway, you are missing the whole point of this.
If you say a buddha lives for 10,000 years, or 20,000, or whatever, and then ceases,
you negate the basic quality that enlightened mind is free from all concepts of space and time,
which means that you would have to establish a cause for the cessation of that Buddha.
.
.
.


Hah hah, the situation is the same if the Buddha lives 80 years or 10 000 years, it makes no difference. This seeming problem is commonly solved with the teaching of two or three Kayas of Buddhahood, and by the teaching that the form body of a Buddha is illusory.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:41 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Truth is a sociological phenomenon. This means that it depends on the sense perception of human beings, it depends on the consciousness and memory of human beings, on the level of morality of human beings, on the laws of social behaviour among human beings, on the political interests of larger human social units, and so on..


You are saying that something is true if people believe it is true.
So, if "enough" people believe that the above statement is false,
is it a true statement or not?

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Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:09 pm

Aemilius wrote: There are some good videos about the forbidden archaeology in the Youtube, I tried to provide a link to one of them, but it turned out to be impossible for some strange reason(?) It seems that You'll have to find the material Yourself, if You are interested in it. There really is proof, I would say, definitely.


Try again. Try copying and pasting in the entire URL from the browser window,
because I'd like to see it.
When I looked, and all I found was crap.

Here is an example of the kind of persuasion that you are falling for. It's just conjecture:

PROOF THAT THE GRAND CANYON WAS CREATED BY A RACE OF GIANT SPACE ALIENS:

Was the Grand Canyon carved out by a race of giant space aliens as a giant nest for their eggs?
Many leading researchers now have solid evidence!! Lets examine the facts.
These facts are presented by Dr. Padma Von Samba,
the leading researcher in Grand Canyon Alien discoveries.
FACT: No HUMAN could have possibly created the Grand Canyon. Any living beings who would be capable of such a feat would have to have been incredibly huge, mega-size beings, as tall as skyscrapers, and since there is ZERO evidence of such beings ever living on Earth, they would have had to have been extraterrestrials.
FACT: The Grand Canyon serves no human purpose, so there would be no reason to think humans would have created it. Also, if humans had created it, they would have needed to move all the dirt to someplace else. But where is it? It would be the size of a mountain, easy to find! Yet, No other soil on Earth matches the soil composition of The Grand Canyon, therefore it would have HAD to have been taken away from our planet, and this could only have been done using large space ships, and the only ones who would have had those would have been space aliens. All the logic adds up!
FACT: Death Valley, in The Grand Canyon, is the lowest point on Earth. If Aliens needed a place to bury their eggs, this would be the safest location. This also makes sense, because the eggs would have to also be of enormous size. And The Grand Canyon would have been the perfect incubator. The fact that Dinosaurs also laid their eggs in holes in the ground, and were of enormous size also raises the very real possibility that some of the aliens may have stayed behind and evolved into some of the enormous dinosaurs whose bones are in fact on display in major museums around the world!
FACT: Fossil records show that The Grand Canyon was here millions of years before there were humans. Therefore, humans could not possibly have created it!

In spite of this compelling evidence provided by Dr. Von Samba, the official "science" community refuses to acknowledge these important findings. Why? They are intentionally covering it up because is contradicts their own theories about Earth's history. They don't want to lose their precious grant money. But you can help spread the TRUTH about the Grand Canyon, and the ancient race of giant space aliens who laid there eggs there.


See? anybody can make up that kind of nonsense garbage.
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Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby porpoise » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:24 pm

dharmagoat wrote:If you want to get off on a genuine mystery, try pondering consciousness.


Yes, consciousness is just wierd... ;)
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby dharmagoat » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:44 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:In spite of this compelling evidence provided by Dr. Von Samba, the official "science" community refuses to acknowledge these important findings. Why? They are intentionally covering it up because is contradicts their own theories about Earth's history. They don't want to lose their precious grant money. But you can help spread the TRUTH about the Grand Canyon, and the ancient race of giant space aliens who laid there eggs there.

Bloody science. Who needs it anyway? Its only function is to restrict our imagination.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby Aemilius » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:56 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Truth is a sociological phenomenon. This means that it depends on the sense perception of human beings, it depends on the consciousness and memory of human beings, on the level of morality of human beings, on the laws of social behaviour among human beings, on the political interests of larger human social units, and so on..


You are saying that something is true if people believe it is true.


I am not saying that actually. I am saying several things, one is that You don't have so much choice in what you experience as true. If you are born and brought up in North America, as an example, You will automatically experience certain things that objective reality. If you are born and educated somewhere else, say in Africa, Australia, Buryatia, Vietnam, etc.., you will experience other things as unquestionable & absolute truth (more or less). Then within that given nationality there are various social groups and social classes, and levels of hierarchy within those social units, that will further determine, to a large extent, what you will hold to be true.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:45 pm

Aemilius wrote: I am saying several things, one is that You don't have so much choice in what you experience as true.


wow.

If you really don't know how to tell the difference between is and what isn't,
then I wish you good luck.
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.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby Aemilius » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:20 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Aemilius wrote: I am saying several things, one is that You don't have so much choice in what you experience as true.


wow.

If you really don't know how to tell the difference between is and what isn't,
then I wish you good luck.


I am sad if we are so far away from mutual understanding. Are You sure You are not purposefully misunderstanding me?
"You don't have much choice" means that if you are chinese you don't have much choice over this basic fact.
From this basic fact, and from others like it, many consequences follow that will determine how we see and experience the manifested world. In this sense we don't have much choice over what we see, perceive and believe.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby dharmagoat » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:17 pm

Aemilius wrote:"You don't have much choice" means that if you are chinese you don't have much choice over this basic fact.
From this basic fact, and from others like it, many consequences follow that will determine how we see and experience the manifested world. In this sense we don't have much choice over what we see, perceive and believe.

Limited beliefs come from limited experience and knowledge, it is not determined by our culture.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:43 pm

Aemilius wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Aemilius wrote: I am saying several things, one is that You don't have so much choice in what you experience as true.


wow.

If you really don't know how to tell the difference between is and what isn't,
then I wish you good luck.


I am sad if we are so far away from mutual understanding. Are You sure You are not purposefully misunderstanding me?
"You don't have much choice" means that if you are chinese you don't have much choice over this basic fact.
From this basic fact, and from others like it, many consequences follow that will determine how we see and experience the manifested world. In this sense we don't have much choice over what we see, perceive and believe.


Cultural influences certainly do shape the way we see things, how we see the world,
like wind that blows a person one way or another
We do not have much choice about that, but how we respond to that is our choice.

This has nothing to do with separating facts from conjecture.
People in a society might be full of all types of misunderstandings or beliefs in things that are not true.
But this doesn't mean that you can't apply a logical process and prove they are wrong.
Just because something is possible, such as an ancient race of giants,
doesn't mean it ever occurred.
After all, as it turns out, the world is not flat, and the earth is not the center of the universe.
It's up to the person making the claim to prove it is true
and not up to others to disprove it.

a literal interpretation of the statement, "20,000 year-old Buddhas" doesn't make any sense
even from a Buddhist perspective, for reasons i have already mentioned.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby dharmagoat » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:51 pm

I have to say it: you two sure have stamina.

:anjali:
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby Alfredo » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:39 pm

If you like the Nephilim, you'll love Time Cube: http://www.timecube.com

And if you can prove it wrong (God forbid), you can win USD 10,000.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby Aemilius » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:06 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Cultural influences certainly do shape the way we see things, how we see the world,
like wind that blows a person one way or another
We do not have much choice about that, but how we respond to that is our choice.

This has nothing to do with separating facts from conjecture.
People in a society might be full of all types of misunderstandings or beliefs in things that are not true.
But this doesn't mean that you can't apply a logical process and prove they are wrong.
Just because something is possible, such as an ancient race of giants,
doesn't mean it ever occurred.
After all, as it turns out, the world is not flat, and the earth is not the center of the universe.
It's up to the person making the claim to prove it is true
and not up to others to disprove it.

a literal interpretation of the statement, "20,000 year-old Buddhas" doesn't make any sense
even from a Buddhist perspective, for reasons i have already mentioned.


Reality, subject and object, is produced through dependent origination; ie 1.Ignorance -> 2.Mental formations -> 3.Consciousness -> 4.Name and form -> etc...
This process continues through a long passage of time. What you perceive in this life is conditioned by, and produced by, mental formations & mental habits of the past.
Critical thinking is not something unique to the modern european culture. It has always existed. And yet the various peoples of past and the present have perceived, and do perceive, different realities.
In the process of dependent origination some consciousnesses (& name and forms) perceive objects of suffering, others perceive objects of comfort and bliss.
In this life we perceive a roughly similar realm, but there are degrees of difference in our perceived objects, within our presently common realm. Some may perceive taoist immortals, others are certain that nothing of the kind has ever existed. Both streams of existence are possible in dependent origination. Our deeply held convictions become part of the perceived objects, or the whole of it.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:21 pm

Aemilius wrote:

Reality, subject and object, is produced through dependent origination; ie 1.Ignorance -> 2.Mental formations -> 3.Consciousness -> 4.Name and form -> etc...
This process continues through a long passage of time. What you perceive in this life is conditioned by, and produced by, mental formations & mental habits of the past.
Critical thinking is not something unique to the modern european culture. It has always existed. And yet the various peoples of past and the present have perceived, and do perceive, different realities.
In the process of dependent origination some consciousnesses (& name and forms) perceive objects of suffering, others perceive objects of comfort and bliss.
In this life we perceive a roughly similar realm, but there are degrees of difference in our perceived objects, within our presently common realm. Some may perceive taoist immortals, others are certain that nothing of the kind has ever existed. Both streams of existence are possible in dependent origination. Our deeply held convictions become part of the perceived objects, or the whole of it.


In other words, again, you are saying that
whatever a person believes is true,
is true.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby Aemilius » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:33 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Aemilius wrote:

Reality, subject and object, is produced through dependent origination; ie 1.Ignorance -> 2.Mental formations -> 3.Consciousness -> 4.Name and form -> etc...
This process continues through a long passage of time. What you perceive in this life is conditioned by, and produced by, mental formations & mental habits of the past.
Critical thinking is not something unique to the modern european culture. It has always existed. And yet the various peoples of past and the present have perceived, and do perceive, different realities.
In the process of dependent origination some consciousnesses (& name and forms) perceive objects of suffering, others perceive objects of comfort and bliss.
In this life we perceive a roughly similar realm, but there are degrees of difference in our perceived objects, within our presently common realm. Some may perceive taoist immortals, others are certain that nothing of the kind has ever existed. Both streams of existence are possible in dependent origination. Our deeply held convictions become part of the perceived objects, or the whole of it.


In other words, again, you are saying that
whatever a person believes is true,
is true.


Yet again, what I am saying is: We can consider that the alaya-consciousness produces the perceived world. The alaya is not changed so rapidly as are our beliefs and opinions. It takes a very long time for dramatic changes to occur in the alaya-consciousness. Furthermore, our beliefs are not the only factor that determines the nature and content of the alaya-consciousness. Our deeds through body, speech and mind are more decisive in this respect.
Our expressed beliefs are often influenced by social factors and social pressures. Human beings have a need to be accepted by others. There are economic factors that influence our expressed beliefs. Getting or losing a job might depend on your views and values. And even life-preserving factors exist sometimes, like during a war or a revolution,...
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby theanarchist » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:09 pm

Aemilius wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:Cultural influences certainly do shape the way we see things, how we see the world,
like wind that blows a person one way or another
We do not have much choice about that, but how we respond to that is our choice.

This has nothing to do with separating facts from conjecture.
People in a society might be full of all types of misunderstandings or beliefs in things that are not true.
But this doesn't mean that you can't apply a logical process and prove they are wrong.
Just because something is possible, such as an ancient race of giants,
doesn't mean it ever occurred.
After all, as it turns out, the world is not flat, and the earth is not the center of the universe.
It's up to the person making the claim to prove it is true
and not up to others to disprove it.

a literal interpretation of the statement, "20,000 year-old Buddhas" doesn't make any sense
even from a Buddhist perspective, for reasons i have already mentioned.


Reality, subject and object, is produced through dependent origination; ie 1.Ignorance -> 2.Mental formations -> 3.Consciousness -> 4.Name and form -> etc...
This process continues through a long passage of time. What you perceive in this life is conditioned by, and produced by, mental formations & mental habits of the past.
Critical thinking is not something unique to the modern european culture. It has always existed. And yet the various peoples of past and the present have perceived, and do perceive, different realities.
In the process of dependent origination some consciousnesses (& name and forms) perceive objects of suffering, others perceive objects of comfort and bliss.
In this life we perceive a roughly similar realm, but there are degrees of difference in our perceived objects, within our presently common realm. Some may perceive taoist immortals, others are certain that nothing of the kind has ever existed. Both streams of existence are possible in dependent origination. Our deeply held convictions become part of the perceived objects, or the whole of it.



So if you believe in them rabbit's horns and big firespitting scaly dragons and pointy eared elves are actually existing phenomena.

Man, this may be subjectively true if you take an LSD trip, but it is not buddhist belief that something can come into existance simply through believing in it.

Either the human that lived for 200000 years is a historical fact or it is not. It can not be both.
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Re: Ancient Buddhas

Postby theanarchist » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:13 pm

Aemilius wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Aemilius wrote:

Reality, subject and object, is produced through dependent origination; ie 1.Ignorance -> 2.Mental formations -> 3.Consciousness -> 4.Name and form -> etc...
This process continues through a long passage of time. What you perceive in this life is conditioned by, and produced by, mental formations & mental habits of the past.
Critical thinking is not something unique to the modern european culture. It has always existed. And yet the various peoples of past and the present have perceived, and do perceive, different realities.
In the process of dependent origination some consciousnesses (& name and forms) perceive objects of suffering, others perceive objects of comfort and bliss.
In this life we perceive a roughly similar realm, but there are degrees of difference in our perceived objects, within our presently common realm. Some may perceive taoist immortals, others are certain that nothing of the kind has ever existed. Both streams of existence are possible in dependent origination. Our deeply held convictions become part of the perceived objects, or the whole of it.


In other words, again, you are saying that
whatever a person believes is true,
is true.


Yet again, what I am saying is: We can consider that the alaya-consciousness produces the perceived world. ..



Nope, it doesn't.

That may be true for the after death bardo states where the mind has no physical basis where the whole world it experiences is basically hallucinated, but it is definitely not true for a being incarnated on earth, into the human realm.
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