switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby futerko » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:52 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:i have attended quite elaborate and extensive shamatha teachings in a mahamudra retreat and also vipashyana


It seems you have already received extensive training in many methods, so I could guess that maybe the problem is your application.

One thing that does strike me is that you seem to think the key to "removing the root cause" lies solely in the practice itself, so maybe it would help if you understood the underlying philosophies behind the practices a bit more. (of course I am guessing here, and understand if you do not wish to go into more details about this "root cause")
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
User avatar
futerko
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:27 am

i think i have the intellectual understanding to remove it but not the experiential and deep meditational to be able to do anything about it.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:05 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:even though sadhana is a complete practice that includes shamatha and vipashyana.

i havent personally made any significant progress in shamatha through practicing sadhana.

and i have yet to see or read any evidence that you can actually accomplish shamatha by doing a sadhana.

my intention really was not to measure my progress by measuring it against someone elses. that kind of thought has not occured in my mind. sorry for the confusion it has caused you.


Have you tried doing any Kasina practices?
I think this might be something you would be very interested in.
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:33 am

never heard, can you tell me more ?
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:49 am

My Mahamudra teacher (who was in charge of three three year retreats) was commanded by his teacher to go practice in the Burmese tradition first, before taking on Vajrayana practice (as a monk).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7860
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:51 am

so obviously after having heard already two stories like this, there has to be great benefits in doing this.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:55 am

Without first having a solid basis in shine and laktong (shamata and vipassana) most people will fail miserably with sadhana practices.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7860
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:07 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:never heard, can you tell me more ?


Kasina meditation is simple in theory(you can look up more info on it through google)

Essentially you take a sphere and hold onto its actual phisical image,then you transfer that image to a pure mental image and develop deep concentration on this mental image.....if your concentration is strong you can hold this image with no problem.......after awhile you will recieve a "sign" which lets you know you will enter jhana....the "sign" is known as a Nimitta...which is a bright light that arises in the mind on its own accord,once it arises concentrate on it and develop it(it will replace the mental image you created previously).

Conentrating on this is said to lead you to what your looking for.

(good thing about the practice is the "sign" Nimitta is an experience that has been verified by many teachers and many many times it is common to come across people who are asking Thervadan teachers what the light or sparks of electricity they were expericing was)

The problem is finding teachers who can teach you this practice.
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Clarence » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:28 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:never heard, can you tell me more ?


They are described thoroughly in the books I recommended to you.
Clarence
 
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:19 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:57 am

the Pa Auk related books. the context is different since we were talking about tibetan buddhism and in this context vajrayana sadhana, that is it possible to attain the accomplishment of shamatha through the sadhana method of deity yoga of whatnot.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:21 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:the Pa Auk related books. the context is different since we were talking about tibetan buddhism and in this context vajrayana sadhana, that is it possible to attain the accomplishment of shamatha through the sadhana method of deity yoga of whatnot.
Of course.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7860
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:54 am

is there any proof or evidence?
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:20 pm

About 800 years worth of accomplished Tibetan Buddhist meditation masters?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7860
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Clarence » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:39 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:the Pa Auk related books. the context is different since we were talking about tibetan buddhism and in this context vajrayana sadhana, that is it possible to attain the accomplishment of shamatha through the sadhana method of deity yoga of whatnot.


The Tibetans have Kasina practice but I don't think it is very widely taught. One can of course generate Shamatha through Sadhana practice. Malcolm might have some posts on it in the Sakya forum. Though that might have been on E-sangha. :smile:
Clarence
 
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:19 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:41 pm

to Sherab Dorje,

and you suppose and take it as granted that most or all of them accomplished shamatha through deity yoga or yidam sadhana what ever level of tantra it is, and not by doing formal shamatha in a cave what they had a lot in tibet. i find it hard to believe that they achieved it through deity yoga and not through formal shamatha.

also the result seems to be different since the mind is moving all the time in sadhana, but in formal shamatha it is still and when accomplished doesnt have to be concentrated on anything, and still it is still, which the term refers to '' calm abiding '', in my experience in sadhana you dont really have calm abiding. you can get focus and concentration, single pointed but not for prolonged periods of time and it doesnt have the purificatory effect for me if i focus on a deity rather than rest in emptiness.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:48 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:About 800 years worth of accomplished Tibetan Buddhist meditation masters?


also that doesnt necessarily apply to westerners.

and it doesnt say in any of theyre life stories that any of them accomplished shamatha through deity yoga.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Clarence » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:55 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:to Sherab Dorje,

and you suppose and take it as granted that most or all of them accomplished shamatha through deity yoga or yidam sadhana what ever level of tantra it is, and not by doing formal shamatha in a cave what they had a lot in tibet. i find it hard to believe that they achieved it through deity yoga and not through formal shamatha.

also the result seems to be different since the mind is moving all the time in sadhana, but in formal shamatha it is still and when accomplished doesnt have to be concentrated on anything, and still it is still, which the term refers to '' calm abiding '', in my experience in sadhana you dont really have calm abiding. you can get focus and concentration, single pointed but not for prolonged periods of time and it doesnt have the purificatory effect for me if i focus on a deity rather than rest in emptiness.


You should read CNN's Introduction to Contemplation. There it is very clearly described how there is no real difference between thought and no-thought states of mind. One can have stillness of mind while having thoughts. As long as one is not distracted by them.
Clarence
 
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:19 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby Luke » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:45 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:also that doesnt necessarily apply to westerners.

and it doesnt say in any of theyre life stories that any of them accomplished shamatha through deity yoga.

I remember reading one story of ancient Tibetan Buddhist masters--I think it was about Gampopa and Milarepa.

If I remember correctly, Milarepa said to Gampopa something like "What does it matter that you can sit in samadhi for many days? You still haven't achieved realization! If you practice tummo, you will achieve realization quickly."

Perhaps someone here will be able to find the text or know which story I am talking about.

But even if they do, I am not sure that it says specifically which practices Gampopa (or whoever was in that story) did to achieve such a state of samadhi. Gampopa received the old Kadampa teachings so I guess he would have been practicing whatever an intermediate old Kadampa would have been practicing at that time.

You could try practicing a particular sadhana in solitary retreat for 1, 2, or more weeks and get a lama's instructions about how to plan your time in the retreat. It could be a worthwhile thing to try if you are still willing to practice some Vajrayana things.

But I also understand the motivation to drop it for more simplicity. That is how I felt as well.
User avatar
Luke
 
Posts: 1557
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:11 pm

:good:

at the moment only vajrayana practice im interested is Phowa and Chenrezig and i dont want chenrezig retreat. maybe a drubchen would be nice but i think i want to achieve shamatha so i can i.e take the path of sutra mahamudra and also practice tantra with better fruits in lesser amount of time.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: switching from vajrayana to theravada for some time

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:31 pm

because it is not focusing on an object in the higher states of practice. it is resting in emptiness or mind's nature. not on a object.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alexa [Bot], Gwenn Dana, odysseus and 11 guests

>