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 Post subject: You dont exist
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:14 pm 
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Dont take my word for it tho:

" Shunyata simply means emptiness, nothingness.....Shunyata, or emptiness, is empty of subject-object relationship. Nonexistent subject, nonexistent object. Perceiver and perceptions do not exist. As far as the groundwork is concerned, there is no definite ground. As long as there is definite ground on the spiritual quest, it becomes a struggle, a deliberate attitude of achievement. And once we begin to be aware of our process of searching as an ambitious struggle, that struggle automatically becomes a formulated struggle, a struggle with ideas, a struggle with theology, concept, which is perpetually creating samsaric mind rather than the spiritual path. The spiritual path becomes religion from that point of view, pejoratively speaking. So the shunyata experience seems to be that which frees us from religiosity and lead us to true spirituality."
Chogyam Trungpa, From "Ground," in GLIMPSES OF SHUNYATA

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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:03 pm 
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m0rl0ck wrote:
Dont take my word for it tho:

" Shunyata simply means emptiness, nothingness.....Shunyata, or emptiness, is empty of subject-object relationship. Nonexistent subject, nonexistent object. Perceiver and perceptions do not exist. As far as the groundwork is concerned, there is no definite ground. As long as there is definite ground on the spiritual quest, it becomes a struggle, a deliberate attitude of achievement. And once we begin to be aware of our process of searching as an ambitious struggle, that struggle automatically becomes a formulated struggle, a struggle with ideas, a struggle with theology, concept, which is perpetually creating samsaric mind rather than the spiritual path. The spiritual path becomes religion from that point of view, pejoratively speaking. So the shunyata experience seems to be that which frees us from religiosity and lead us to true spirituality."
Chogyam Trungpa, From "Ground," in GLIMPSES OF SHUNYATA


I won't because "You don't exist" and Trungpa's teaching on shunyata are different.

If you don't exist then how come you (and me) can't break our worst habits or negativities. If we don't exist then we should be able to break free of these negativities just like writing on water.

If you and I don't exist then what happens when we push a pin (accidentally of course) into our finger? Why does that happen?

Kirt

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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:15 am 
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kirtu wrote:
If you don't exist then how come you (and me) can't break our worst habits or negativities. If we don't exist then we should be able to break free of these negativities just like writing on water.


It's precisely because you don't exist yet think you do, that you cannot break free. If you really exist then you should be able to control yourself.

That's one of the basic points in the classical Buddhist not-self teaching- that if this were your self then you shouldn't be troubled with making it do what you want. Suffering shouldn't be a problem. But since there is no such self yet we think there is, therefore we create a bunch of unnecessary stress for ourselves and other beings.

It's just a fundamental ignorance, from which stems all problems in this world.

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:38 am 
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Dexing wrote:

It's precisely because you don't exist yet think you do, that you cannot break free. If you really exist then you should be able to control yourself.

That's one of the basic points in the classical Buddhist not-self teaching- that if this were your self then you shouldn't be troubled with making it do what you want. Suffering shouldn't be a problem. But since there is no such self yet we think there is, therefore we create a bunch of unnecessary stress for ourselves and other beings.

It's just a fundamental ignorance, from which stems all problems in this world.

:namaste:


I think that pretty much nailed it :thumbsup: :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:12 pm 
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I don't think that Trungpa is saying "you don't exist." That would be an extreme and not void of abstraction.

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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:26 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
I don't think that Trungpa is saying "you don't exist." That would be an extreme and not void of abstraction.


It is an extreme if one attaches to a "you" and says that it either exists or does not exist. Emptiness is the absence of anything that can be pointed to as existing or not existing.

However, we can speak in conventional terms of a false view of "you" that actually is illusory- meaning there is nothing there at all. This "you" does not exist.

See below:

m0rl0ck wrote:
" Shunyata simply means emptiness, nothingness.....Shunyata, or emptiness, is empty of subject-object relationship. Nonexistent subject, nonexistent object. Perceiver and perceptions do not exist......."


:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:57 pm 
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I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is the title of the post should be "Relatively Speaking You Do Exist, But Ultimately One Neither Exists, Nor Not Exists."

I've already copywrighted that title for my upcoming book and registered the domain name. :tongue:



Dexing wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:
I don't think that Trungpa is saying "you don't exist." That would be an extreme and not void of abstraction.


It is an extreme if one attaches to a "you" and says that it either exists or does not exist. Emptiness is the absence of anything that can be pointed to as existing or not existing.

However, we can speak in conventional terms of a false view of "you" that actually is illusory- meaning there is nothing there at all. This "you" does not exist.

See below:

m0rl0ck wrote:
" Shunyata simply means emptiness, nothingness.....Shunyata, or emptiness, is empty of subject-object relationship. Nonexistent subject, nonexistent object. Perceiver and perceptions do not exist......."


:namaste:

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    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:54 am 
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mr. gordo wrote:
I don't think that Trungpa is saying "you don't exist." That would be an extreme and not void of abstraction.


Mind only thinks and speaks in extremes.

"Emptiness" isn't the absolute, it's only a word, a proxy for the absolute.


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:48 pm 
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Absolute is a proxy for the absolute, too. :rolling:

I can prove that you don't exist, just by closing my eyes, like thi....


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:40 am 
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termite wrote:
I can prove that you don't exist, just by closing my eyes, like thi....

Hello Termite!! I'm still here. :woohoo:


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:16 am 
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Dexing wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:
I don't think that Trungpa is saying "you don't exist." That would be an extreme and not void of abstraction.


It is an extreme if one attaches to a "you" and says that it either exists or does not exist. Emptiness is the absence of anything that can be pointed to as existing or not existing.

However, we can speak in conventional terms of a false view of "you" that actually is illusory- meaning there is nothing there at all. This "you" does not exist.

See below:

m0rl0ck wrote:
" Shunyata simply means emptiness, nothingness.....Shunyata, or emptiness, is empty of subject-object relationship. Nonexistent subject, nonexistent object. Perceiver and perceptions do not exist......."


:namaste:


From a Gelug Madhyamika perspective (sorry have to do that, but the same terms can have wildly varying interpretations amongst different schools) there is a trend in English to use the term illusion-like, which doesn't mean nothing is there at all. It just means that its mode of existence is not how we see it. The term is only used in the context of conventional truth, and in fact perceiving it properly would not be a false view at all, though it might be a correct view of the false.

Illusory basically means deceptive, which for example refer to sense perceptions because even valid cognitions of the sensory kind can easily give rise to the idea that what is perceived has it's own independent nature.

In fact a correct apprehension of the illusion-like nature of all phenomena, which entails a perception of their dependent nature, would totally reinforce the mind's capacity to perceive shunyata. This is especially important as shunyata too is a dependent phenomena which is permanent and non-composite (therefore not constantly changing for as long as what it depends on exists).


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:31 pm 
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shel wrote:
termite wrote:
I can prove that you don't exist, just by closing my eyes, like thi....

Hello Termite!! I'm still here. :woohoo:


Not until just now! ;)

...But I'm glad to see that you are still around. :twothumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:55 pm 
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What the... He's gone again! Shel? Shel?

Oh well maybe he'll reappear soon.

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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:45 pm 
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catmoon wrote:
What the... He's gone again! Shel? Shel?

Oh well maybe he'll reappear soon.



:coffee: This is just silly.

Everyone knows there's no such thing as a catmoon......
:stirthepot:


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:09 pm 
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catmoon wrote:
What the... He's gone again! Shel? Shel?

Oh well maybe he'll reappear soon.


They come and go so quickly. You need a really fine net to catch them. :rolling:


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:44 pm 
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hello Termite! still chewing that wood?!
best wishes, Flakey. x

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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:59 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
hello Termite! still chewing that wood?!
best wishes, Flakey. x


Until I get board of it. ;)

Good to see you, Flakey!


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:27 pm 
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termite wrote:
shel wrote:
termite wrote:
I can prove that you don't exist, just by closing my eyes, like thi....

Hello Termite!! I'm still here. :woohoo:


Not until just now! ;)

...But I'm glad to see that you are still around. :twothumbsup:

Good to see you here. :smile:

So I guess that tree in the forest didn't make a sound. That's embarrassing! :emb:


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:39 am 
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Oh, that tree! :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: You dont exist
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:28 pm 
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mudra wrote:

Everyone knows there's no such thing as a catmoon......
:stirthepot:



Every moon is a cat moon!

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