Just Deserts.

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Just Deserts.

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:27 pm

During a current discussion on Dhamma Wheel a Bhikkhu member states that the sentiment ' if a person is murdered they are getting their just deserts ' in terms of vipaka, is " ubiquitous among Theosophically influenced Buddhists and common in the Vajrayana '.
Now I have little interest in what may or may not be ubiquitous among Theosophists , but what of his statement that it is a view commonly held in the Vajrayana..what do YOU think ?
Last edited by Simon E. on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Jikan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:36 pm

I've been around Vajrayana people on a regular basis for about ten years now. Not once have I heard such a claim made. But in a way, that's beside the point; the burden of proof for such a claim isn't on me, it's on the person who is making it. Does this person offer any kind of evidence of such a sentiment among Vajrayana practitioners, and for its ubiquity?

If not, then that claim should be rejected.

I'm intrigued to know who these mysterious Theosophically-influenced Buddhists might be. :spy:
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:38 pm

Simon E. wrote:During a current discussion on Dhamma Wheel a Bhikkhu member states that the sentiment ' if a person is murdered they are getting their just deserts ' is " ubiquitous among Theosophically influenced Buddhists and common in the Vajrayana '.
Now I have little interest in what may or may not be ubiquitous among Theosophists , but what of his statement that it is a view commonly held in the Vajrayana..what do YOU think ?
I think that desserts is spelt with two "s"! :smile:

But seriously, I think it is a view ubiquitous amongst theosophically minded Vajrayana practitioners that have yet to fully relinquish their adherence to their Abrahamic roots (in regards to Westerners) or whose understanding/view of karma/deities/etc... is simplistic or limted to the outer level only (for non-Westerners).
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:39 pm

Jikan wrote:I've been around Vajrayana people on a regular basis for about ten years now. Not once have I heard such a claim made. But in a way, that's beside the point; the burden of proof for such a claim isn't on me, it's on the person who is making it. Does this person offer any kind of evidence of such a sentiment among Vajrayana practitioners, and for its ubiquity?

If not, then that claim should be rejected.

I'm intrigued to know who these mysterious Theosophically-influenced Buddhists might be. :spy:


I'm with Jikan on this. I can't say that I ever met a serious Buddhist who would make this claim. Who did you have in mind, Simon?
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:42 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:[I think that desserts is spelt with two "s"! :smile:


Why would you spell it with more than one "s"? It is deserts meaning "to deserve", with the accent on the second syllable, not desert like the Gobi or Sahara with accent on the first syllable.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:42 pm

Jikan wrote:I've been around Vajrayana people on a regular basis for about ten years now. Not once have I heard such a claim made. But in a way, that's beside the point; the burden of proof for such a claim isn't on me, it's on the person who is making it. Does this person offer any kind of evidence of such a sentiment among Vajrayana practitioners, and for its ubiquity?

If not, then that claim should be rejected.

I'm intrigued to know who these mysterious Theosophically-influenced Buddhists might be. :spy:

Me neither Jikan..And yes it should be rejected. And yes I too was left wondering who these crypto Theosophists might be.. :smile:
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Jikan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:44 pm

Can't speak for the UK or the Commonwealth, but in the US: Just Desserts is a cake bakery in Oakland, Just Deserts is the appropriate spelling for the phrase meaning "getting what's coming to you" or "getting what you deserve."

/pedantry
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:44 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:[I think that desserts is spelt with two "s"! :smile:


Why would you spell it with more than one "s"? It is deserts meaning "to deserve", with the accent on the second syllable, not desert like the Gobi or Sahara with accent on the first syllable.
I stand corrected! Please excuse my well-intentioned ignorance.

:focus:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:45 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Simon E. wrote:During a current discussion on Dhamma Wheel a Bhikkhu member states that the sentiment ' if a person is murdered they are getting their just deserts ' is " ubiquitous among Theosophically influenced Buddhists and common in the Vajrayana '.
Now I have little interest in what may or may not be ubiquitous among Theosophists , but what of his statement that it is a view commonly held in the Vajrayana..what do YOU think ?
I think that desserts is spelt with two "s"! :smile:

But seriously, I think it is a view ubiquitous amongst theosophically minded Vajrayana practitioners that have yet to fully relinquish their adherence to their Abrahamic roots (in regards to Westerners) or whose understanding/view of karma/deities/etc... is simplistic or limted to the outer level only (for non-Westerners).

'Fess up time.
When I first posted it I put desserts, but that looked like pudding. So I checked..and edited. :smile:
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:47 pm

Simon E. wrote: 'Fess up time.
When I first posted it I put desserts, but that looked like pudding. So I checked..and edited. :smile:
:twothumbsup: Just desserts sounds a lot sweeter though!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:50 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Jikan wrote:I've been around Vajrayana people on a regular basis for about ten years now. Not once have I heard such a claim made. But in a way, that's beside the point; the burden of proof for such a claim isn't on me, it's on the person who is making it. Does this person offer any kind of evidence of such a sentiment among Vajrayana practitioners, and for its ubiquity?

If not, then that claim should be rejected.

I'm intrigued to know who these mysterious Theosophically-influenced Buddhists might be. :spy:


I'm with Jikan on this. I can't say that I ever met a serious Buddhist who would make this claim. Who did you have in mind, Simon?

Well the point wasn't a sect war.. but you will find it on Dhamma Wheel on a thread delicately :smile: titled ' If people get murdered do they deserve it ' or very similar.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Knotty Veneer » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:I'm with Jikan on this. I can't say that I ever met a serious Buddhist who would make this claim. Who did you have in mind, Simon?


Nor I. No-one who has taken any time to read up on karma as understood by any of the mainstream Buddhist traditions would make such a simplistic correlation.

Don't have a lot of time for Theosophy - 19th century forerunner of new age woo-woo. Didn't think there was much of it still around,
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Ayu » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:32 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:[I think that desserts is spelt with two "s"! :smile:


Why would you spell it with more than one "s"? It is deserts meaning "to deserve", with the accent on the second syllable, not desert like the Gobi or Sahara with accent on the first syllable.
I stand corrected! Please excuse my well-intentioned ignorance.

:focus:

But thank you both very much for this discussion - because i could not understand what kind of influence the death of a person has on the desert, like gobi, ha ha ha. :thinking:
:focus:
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:36 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Simon E. wrote: 'Fess up time.
When I first posted it I put desserts, but that looked like pudding. So I checked..and edited. :smile:
:twothumbsup: Just desserts sounds a lot sweeter though!

I am on a diet. :cry: I could just do with a nice big baklava with my cup of tea.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Jikan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:45 pm

yummy baklava...

Knotty Veneer wrote: Don't have a lot of time for Theosophy - 19th century forerunner of new age woo-woo. Didn't think there was much of it still around,


Theosophy casts a surprisingly tall shadow into the present. It crystallized a great deal of material circulating in fin de siecle Europe in such a way that, well, people bought it and believed in it. That is, Theosophy welded together an appeal to spiritual development to a long-view historicism (through the language of race that still had a patina of "science" to it), philosophical idealism pace the Bradley brothers (A.C. & F.H.), & the cult-leader as an intellectual authority (or one's personal spiritual development as an indicator of intellectual authority). That repertoire of material persists in certain ways. Take, for instance, Ken Wilber: author of long, historicist tomes predicated in philosophical idealism and legitimized by the author's own figure of spiritual accomplishment. Voila: theosophy-lite. As before, people buy it.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:50 pm

Jikan wrote:yummy baklava...

Knotty Veneer wrote: Don't have a lot of time for Theosophy - 19th century forerunner of new age woo-woo. Didn't think there was much of it still around,


Theosophy casts a surprisingly tall shadow into the present. It crystallized a great deal of material circulating in fin de siecle Europe in such a way that, well, people bought it and believed in it. That is, Theosophy welded together an appeal to spiritual development to a long-view historicism (through the language of race that still had a patina of "science" to it), philosophical idealism pace the Bradley brothers (A.C. & F.H.), & the cult-leader as an intellectual authority (or one's personal spiritual development as an indicator of intellectual authority). That repertoire of material persists in certain ways. Take, for instance, Ken Wilber: author of long, historicist tomes predicated in philosophical idealism and legitimized by the author's own figure of spiritual accomplishment. Voila: theosophy-lite. As before, people buy it.


That's true, with the difference being that Blavatsky's stuff is actually quite fun to read. Wilber? Not so much.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Knotty Veneer » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:05 pm

Jikan wrote:Theosophy casts a surprisingly tall shadow into the present. It crystallized a great deal of material circulating in fin de siecle Europe in such a way that, well, people bought it and believed in it. That is, Theosophy welded together an appeal to spiritual development to a long-view historicism (through the language of race that still had a patina of "science" to it), philosophical idealism pace the Bradley brothers (A.C. & F.H.), & the cult-leader as an intellectual authority (or one's personal spiritual development as an indicator of intellectual authority). That repertoire of material persists in certain ways. Take, for instance, Ken Wilber: author of long, historicist tomes predicated in philosophical idealism and legitimized by the author's own figure of spiritual accomplishment. Voila: theosophy-lite. As before, people buy it.


Agree that Theosophy has a long shadow - current vogue for angels, crystals etc I think can be traced back directly to them.

The early Buddhist organizations like The Buddhist Society in the UK orignally grew out of Theosophical "lodges".

However, since the arrival of representatives of bona fide Buddhist traditions in the UK in the 50s and 60s even that sort of influence has more or less disappeared (although I still see some vague remnants in groups like the FWBO/Triratna).

But surely there is no longer any large numbers of people claiming to be in communication with Ascended Masters and the like.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:14 pm

Your reference to the Triratna org surprises me K.V.
I am not in touch with their current thinking but the various works of Madame Blavatsky which initially attracted the young Sangharakshita eventually became one of the main points of contention between him and Christmas Humphreys, who remained a Theosophist, albeit with a thin Buddhist veneer, all his life.
Mr Humphreys thought she was a great Bodhisattva.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Jikan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:19 pm

Simon E. wrote:Your reference to the Triratna org surprises me K.V.
I am not in touch with their current thinking but the various works of Madame Blavatsky which initially attracted the young Sangharakshita eventually became one of the main points of contention between him and Christmas Humphreys, who remained a Theosophist, albeit with a thin Buddhist veneer, all his life.
Mr Humphreys thought she was a great Bodhisattva.


At the risk of going far afield from the topic, and of relying on my increasingly poor memory, aren't Sangharakshita's famous comments on gender and homosexuality predicated in a kind of theosophic logic re: angels and spiritual perfection?

I'm asking because I don't know--that's not a rhetorical question.
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Re: Just Deserts.

Postby Jikan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:21 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Jikan wrote:Theosophy casts a surprisingly tall shadow into the present. It crystallized a great deal of material circulating in fin de siecle Europe in such a way that, well, people bought it and believed in it. That is, Theosophy welded together an appeal to spiritual development to a long-view historicism (through the language of race that still had a patina of "science" to it), philosophical idealism pace the Bradley brothers (A.C. & F.H.), & the cult-leader as an intellectual authority (or one's personal spiritual development as an indicator of intellectual authority). That repertoire of material persists in certain ways. Take, for instance, Ken Wilber: author of long, historicist tomes predicated in philosophical idealism and legitimized by the author's own figure of spiritual accomplishment. Voila: theosophy-lite. As before, people buy it.


Agree that Theosophy has a long shadow - current vogue for angels, crystals etc I think can be traced back directly to them.

The early Buddhist organizations like The Buddhist Society in the UK orignally grew out of Theosophical "lodges".

However, since the arrival of representatives of bona fide Buddhist traditions in the UK in the 50s and 60s even that sort of influence has more or less disappeared (although I still see some vague remnants in groups like the FWBO/Triratna).

But surely there is no longer any large numbers of people claiming to be in communication with Ascended Masters and the like.


True: appeal to direct contact with ascended masters has been replaced by appeal to a canon of Spiritual Masters whose comments are available in English, some of them Theosophy-influenced (eg Aurobindo Ghose who took inspiration from James Cousins, theosophist), and by a kind of self-affirming positive psychologish developmental model, as means of authorization.
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