Celibacy ?

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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:38 pm

Simon E. wrote:This thread was a mistake. :lol: I thoroughly regret posting it.
I conclude that a mature discussion on the topic is not yet possible at this stage of Buddhadharma's shifting to the west.


I agree. This statement doesn't strike me as very mature or even nuanced with respect to what the Buddha himself taught:

I see no virtue per se in celibacy. It seems from my pov to be extraordinary that any lay person should see virtue in it.
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Dorje Shedrub » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:54 pm

I think we can agree that there is a difference between having sex just for pleasure and outside of a relationship
and sex as part of expressing love in a loving and giving relationship.

Of course there is still desire and attachment, but householders
have such a life.
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:02 pm

Perhaps it could be closed Jikan ?
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:03 pm

Simon E. wrote:This thread was a mistake. :lol: I thoroughly regret posting it.
I conclude that a mature discussion on the topic is not yet possible at this stage of Buddhadharma's shifting to the west.



Ain't that the truth. Reminds of me talking to Christians about it usually, with slightly different emphases.

I dunno, it seems to me that the vast majority of laypeople have things many orders of magnitude greater than sex to attend to that might be disturbing their practice, ethics wise, meditation wise, whatever.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:09 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I dunno, it seems to me that the vast majority of laypeople have things many orders of magnitude greater than sex to attend to that might be disturbing their practice, ethics wise, meditation wise, whatever.


Sensual desire is one of the five hindrances, so while there are other hindrances to address, this is yet a significant one. Sex, however, is just one example. Entertainments, perfumes, over-eating, all manner of examples can be generated.
Last edited by daverupa on Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:10 pm

daverupa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I dunno, it seems to me that the vast majority of laypeople have things many orders of magnitude greater than sex to attend to that might be disturbing their practice, ethics wise, meditation wise, whatever.


Sensual desire is one of the five hindrances, so while there are other hindrances to address, this is yet a significant one.



Yeah, i've heard the scriptural answers..you guys are broken records sometimes. Laypeople still live the lives they do. For instance, if you want your marriage staying healthy, a big part of that is regular sex. So, basically you are left with the choice of either having a healthy sex life as best you can, or simply becoming a renunciate, if you are not going to do the second you have to try the first. Which makes all these rote answers to the question comically useless.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:11 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Laypeople still live the lives they do...


That's the problem.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:13 pm

daverupa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Laypeople still live the lives they do...


That's the problem.


What a silly answer "hey guys, just become renunciates", why even bother posting that?
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:13 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Yeah, i've heard the scriptural answers..you guys are broken records sometimes. Laypeople still live the lives they do...


There are two extremes... puritanical approaches and outright rejection of any moderation.

You can have your cake and eat it too, but hopefully you realize the benefits of reigning in passions.

There's a difference between having a glass of wine once in awhile and being an alcoholic.

The same goes for sexual activities, but the contemporary west largely sees sex as healthy, so the more you get, the better off you are. This is contrary to a lot of ancient wisdom, east and west.
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:16 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Yeah, i've heard the scriptural answers..you guys are broken records sometimes. Laypeople still live the lives they do...


There are two extremes... puritanical approaches and outright rejection of any moderation.

You can have your cake and eat it too, but hopefully you realize the benefits of reigning in passions.

There's a difference between having a glass of wine once in awhile and being an alcoholic.

The same goes for sexual activities, but the contemporary west largely sees sex as healthy, so the more you get, the better off you are. This is contrary to a lot of ancient wisdom, east and west.



Of course, and for most practitioners, if they practice effectively at all, I think it becomes fairly obvious when things are getting out of hand in terms of sexual desire. Frankly when you are married and have children, getting too much sex is fairly unlikely anyway, though overabundance of sexual desire isn't necessarily.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:29 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Of course, and for most practitioners, if they practice effectively at all, I think it becomes fairly obvious when things are getting out of hand in terms of sexual desire. Frankly when you are married and have children, getting too much sex is fairly unlikely anyway, though overabundance of sexual desire isn't necessarily.


There's still the old practice of laity taking 8 precepts for a day and night, and not having sex on certain days (like Buddhajayanti and certain days on the lunar cycle: 8, 14, 15, 23, 29 and 30). In some countries this is still readily encouraged and practiced.

The real issue is that in the hypersexualized west people want their Buddhism along with a great sex life, and not feel uneasy about the latter when they read all this literature which encourages moderation and even celibacy at least once in awhile.

You have the liberty to have a passionate sex life, but at the very least as a Buddhist acknowledge that the Buddha encouraged people to reign in their desires and to try not to act upon them.
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:40 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
daverupa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Laypeople still live the lives they do...


That's the problem.


What a silly answer "hey guys, just become renunciates", why even bother posting that?


Because laypeople living lives they want isn't something the Dhamma has to make room for. There are degrees here, which is why sexual misconduct is among the five precepts while entertainments are among the eight. One can choose one's degree of approach to these things... but that doesn't render harmless that which remains to be renounced.

I also didn't say "hey guys, just become renunciates". You are talking at your thoughts, not my statements.

:shrug:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:49 pm

.....And I never said anything about it being harmless, what is it with celibacy advocates and their projections on DW? I have never seen one post about sexuality on here where the more conservative approach did not involve an immediate assumption of the other side being advocates of "anything goes" sexuality, or the assumption that they are just rationalizing in order to go have a whole bunch of sex, or the assumption that they are idiots who don't understand the general place of sensual desire in Buddhism . Geez, the thread really isn't worth it. It's nearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion about sex on here.


Because laypeople living lives they want isn't something the Dhamma has to make room for.


Did you miss the part where Simon was specifically asking about people who are not part of the ordained Sangha or what? Seriously amazing..

If there was a graphic for throwing my hands in the hand and giving up i'd put it right here --->
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Poorbitch » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:17 pm

Indra' ,do you know why i'm poor ?

Because most of the guys who needs me , for the good of their path , are guys like you ... without money :namaste:
bla bla bla
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:28 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:.....And I never said anything about it being harmless


I never said you did.

what is it with celibacy advocates and their projections on DW? I have never seen one post about sexuality on here where the more conservative approach did not involve 1 an immediate assumption of the other side being advocates of "anything goes" sexuality, or 2 the assumption that they are just rationalizing in order to go have a whole bunch of sex, or 3 the assumption that they are idiots who don't understand the general place of sensual desire in Buddhism .


Never said this stuff, either.

It's nearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion about sex on here.


Or anywhere, for the most part, in my experience.

daverupa wrote:Because laypeople living lives they want isn't something the Dhamma has to make room for.


Did you miss the part where Simon was specifically asking about people who are not part of the ordained Sangha or what?


Didn't miss it... though, are you saying only ordained Sangha practice the Dhamma? Because part of the Dhamma is renunciation of sensuality.

AN 9.41 wrote:Then Tapussa the householder went to Ven. Ananda and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Ananda: "Venerable Ananda, sir, we are householders who indulge in sensuality, delight in sensuality, enjoy sensuality, rejoice in sensuality. For us — indulging in sensuality, delighting in sensuality, enjoying sensuality, rejoicing in sensuality — renunciation seems like a sheer drop-off. Yet I've heard that in this doctrine & discipline the hearts of the very young monks leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. So right here is where this doctrine & discipline is contrary to the great mass of people: i.e., [this issue of] renunciation."

"This calls for a talk, householder. Let's go see the Blessed One. Let's approach him and, on arrival, tell him this matter. However he explains it to us, we will bear it in mind."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Poorbitch » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:39 pm

... and it is a hard job ! :jedi:
bla bla bla
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Clarence » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:33 pm

Poorbitch wrote:Indra' ,do you know why i'm poor ?

Because most of the guys who needs me , for the good of their path , are guys like you ... without money :namaste:


Ah, so we have a new Rinpoche AND a new Khandro. Who knew we would be in such illustrious company.


Anyway, as to celibacy:

I did it for a few years. Works great. But I don't think it is absolutely necessary or even desirable in lay life. When practicing Tantra and Dzogchen one should bring it all to the path. Unfortunately, for most of us that will just amount to adding obscurations and distractions instead of fueling the fire of realization. That's why one needs to do retreat, during which one can focus on other stuff. Of course, some of us do have the Karmamudra instructions so they can go wild even in retreat. :smile:

BTW, I think people should do what makes them happy. If you are married, single, or not a monk and want to have a lot of sex, go for it. If you then find that you don't increase in realization, you might look at celibacy to see if that improves your practice. Until then, most people (mostly men) will just get tense and highly annoying and arrogant and some other more unpleasant adjectives I should not use on this forum. Hope that helps.
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Re: Celibacy ?

Postby Jikan » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:43 pm

Unless and until someone gives a compelling reason to reopen this thread (by PM to myself or another moderator or the admins), I'm closing this down before it spirals any further into the weeds.

There are some topics ancillary to this one that have emerged in this thread that really should be explored in more detail in other threads.
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