Liberation

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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:53 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:well if everything that exists, why do you ask a question that '' can you give birth to mind'' why with that logic that you just explained why dont you ask '' can you give birth to reality ''

My question about the capability to give birth to the mind was a response, and it should be see in the specific context. If unborn mind is liberated, then deluded mins should be born. Thus I asked, can you give birth to mind? The answer is no, so liberation is not dependent on being born or unborn.
KonchokZoepa wrote:and i dont understand what you mean by '' unreal '' things do not exist ? like what ? what do you mean ? what are unreal things ?

Of course you don't understand what unreal means, and it is precisely what I was pointing to. There are no unreal things. Thus, to say this is real, and this is unreal, is false.
KonchokZoepa wrote:well with that logic, liberation cant be found in the non existence of limitations, meaning the opposite of limitation, i thought that buddha thaught the middle way, so maybe it is there.

Boundaries are used to distinguish things. "This is me", "that is chair"... From the boundless reality, distinct entities emerge.
KonchokZoepa wrote:seems to me also that you are trying to widen and liberate your conceptual framework. as to liberate it. which i see works to some degree.

Liberation is here, it does not need to be created, but perceived. Therefore, all concepts needs to be liberated. But this story has a surprise, and it is the answer to my question. I don't see it being revealed anytime soon, and the topic will probably die earlier. So, this thing that poses all the characteristics of liberation, can freely take forms, and is not bound to any specific form, is... the mind. Mind is the Buddha.
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Re: Liberation

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:29 pm

oushi wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:well if everything that exists, why do you ask a question that '' can you give birth to mind'' why with that logic that you just explained why dont you ask '' can you give birth to reality ''

My question about the capability to give birth to the mind was a response, and it should be see in the specific context. If unborn mind is liberated, then deluded mins should be born. Thus I asked, can you give birth to mind? The answer is no, so liberation is not dependent on being born or unborn.


i can agree with that since buddha thaught the middle way. but on the other hand liberation is dependent on both ''being born'' and ''being unborn'' since without them it would not be possible to talk / experience or nothing. so we should apply the tetralemma of the middle way school to this and see where it leads us.
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Re: Liberation

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:32 pm

oushi wrote:Liberation is here, it does not need to be created, but perceived. Therefore, all concepts needs to be liberated. But this story has a surprise, and it is the answer to my question. I don't see it being revealed anytime soon, and the topic will probably die earlier. So, this thing that poses all the characteristics of liberation, can freely take forms, and is not bound to any specific form, is... the mind. Mind is the Buddha.


yes all concepts need to be liberated and i guess you already agree on that that the concepts and theyre mental constructs should be liberated in order to libereation occur, since if you say '' should be perceived'' you are suggesting there is a perceiver and perceived , thus duality , thus me , i , self , mine. so liberation in that state not possible for there is ego clinging so the root of samsara has not been severed.
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:57 pm

I was thinking about how liberation can come into the state of being limited. By definition it cannot be forced into anything, so the only way is to limit itself. Since it is liberation, it is free to take any form, so it is free to limit itself. And this is how delusion comes into being. Mind deludes itself into limitations. In other words, we create boundaries by believing in our limitations, which are build out of meaning.
So, here we are, limited by ideal like: exist, reality, unborn, true, false... But even those limitations are pure liberation in play. Their nature is liberation, they arise because they are free to arise.
Just by following logic we've end up in non-dual liberation.
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Re: Liberation

Postby wisdom » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:11 pm

oushi wrote:
wisdom wrote:The view itself as it is stated is not liberation, nor is thinking of it, studying it, or even understanding it. Only abiding in the view is liberation.

What do you mean by abiding in the view if not thinking about it, or understanding it?


Thoughts are just insubstantial appearances. Even when they take on the form of profound pith instructions on the Buddha Nature, they are nothing more than appearances. Once you have confidence in your ability to abide in your Buddha Nature, then you have no need to think about what the view is, or even to consciously understand it. Even though you might be able to discourse on it for days on end without error, thoughts of it might not arise in your mind for days or weeks. Generally speaking this is the difference between having confidence and not having confidence in the view. Without confidence we need to receive teachings, study and contemplate what the view is in order to understand it and in order to see that our practice is making progress. Once we have confidence, we can drop all of that and just rest into our Buddha Nature. Then whether or not thoughts about it appear or not, it doesn't matter one way or the other.

oushi wrote:
wisdom wrote:liberation itself is beyond words and speaking of it in terms of change and transformation is a bit of a misnomer.

So, I will ask. Before saying a word, did the Buddha give up liberation for the time of speaking?


Not at all.
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Re: Liberation

Postby wisdom » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:12 pm

oushi wrote:I was thinking about how liberation can come into the state of being limited. By definition it cannot be forced into anything, so the only way is to limit itself. Since it is liberation, it is free to take any form, so it is free to limit itself. And this is how delusion comes into being. Mind deludes itself into limitations. In other words, we create boundaries by believing in our limitations, which are build out of meaning.
So, here we are, limited by ideal like: exist, reality, unborn, true, false... But even those limitations are pure liberation in play. Their nature is liberation, they arise because they are free to arise.
Just by following logic we've end up in non-dual liberation.


Ho! Drop it all and be free! Everything is the play of energy and awareness! Not even limitation can escape liberation!
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:42 pm

To be able to drop it, you need to hold it first. But liberation is not keeping you hands clear, it's also freely making them dirty. It is not escapism, or ignorance, and it is free to escape or ignore. The Mind is liberation. It does not need to be let go of, grasped, or transformed in any way, because liberation cannot increase or decrease. It cannot be improved, because it is already perfect.
People are looking for some mysterious phenomena, while failing to see how incredible and free their own mind is. When I was writing the OP I thought this topic will be about logical characteristics of liberation and the consequences they bring. But after the first part, I realized that those characteristics sounds familiar. They perfectly describe... the mind. Then Immediately it reminded me of a text I've red many times.

"Everything that appears in the three realms comes from the mind. Hence Buddhas of the past
and future teach mind to mind without bothering about definitions. But if they don’t define
it, what do they mean by mind? You ask. That’s your mind. I answer. That’s my mind. If I
had no mind how could I answer? If you had no mind, how could you ask? That which asks is
your mind. Through endless kalpas" without beginning, whatever you do, wherever you are,
that’s your real mind, that’s your real buddha. "This mind is the buddha" says the same thing.

-Bodhidharma.
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:34 am

By Padmasambhava

"Because of the unobstructed nature of the mind, there is a continuous arising of appearances.
Like the waves and the waters of the ocean, which are not two,
Whatever arises is liberated into the natural state of the mind.
However many different names are applied to it in this unceasing process of naming things,
With respect to its real meaning, the mind does not exist other than as one.
And, moreover, this singularity is without any foundation and devoid of any root.
But, even though it is one, you cannot look for it in any particular direction.
It cannot be seen as an entity located somewhere, because it is not created or made by anything.
Nor can it be seen as just being empty, because there exists the transparent radiance of its own luminous clarity and awareness.
Nor can it be seen as diversified, because emptiness and clarity are inseparable.
Immediate self-awareness is clear and present.
Even though activities exist, there is no awareness of an agent who is the actor.
Even though they are without any inherent nature, experiences are actually experienced.
If you practice in this way, then everything will be liberated.
With respect to your own sense faculties, everything will be understood immediately without any intervening operations of the intellect.
Just as is the case with the sesame seed being the cause of the oil and the milk being the cause of butter,
But where the oil is not obtained without pressing and the butter is not obtained without churning,
So all sentient beings, even though they possess the actual essence of Buddhahood,
Will not realize Buddhahood without engaging in practice.
If he practices, then even a cowherd can realize liberation.
Even though he does not know the explanation, he can systematically establish himself in the experience of it.
(For example) when one has had the experience of actually tasting sugar in one's own mouth,
one does not need to have that taste explained by someone else.
Not understanding this, even Panditas can fall into error.
Even though they are exceedingly learned and knowledgeable in explaining the nine vehicles,
it will only be like spreading rumors of places, which they have not seen personally.
And with respect to Buddhahood, they will not even approach it for a moment.
If you understand , all of your merits and sins will be liberated into their own condition.
But if you do not understand it, any virtuous or vicious deeds that you commit
will accumulate as karma leading to transmigration in heavenly rebirth or to rebirth in the evil destinies respectively.
But if you understand this empty primal awareness, which is your own mind,
the consequences of merit and of sin will never come to be realized,
just as a spring cannot originate in the empty sky.
In the state of emptiness itself, the object of merit or of sin is not even created.
Therefore, your own manifest self-awareness comes to see everything nakedly.
This self-liberation through seeing with naked awareness is of such great profundity,
and, this being so; you should become intimately acquainted with self-awareness.
Profoundly sealed!"
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Re: Liberation

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:53 am

oushi wrote:I was thinking about how liberation can come into the state of being limited. By definition it cannot be forced into anything, so the only way is to limit itself. Since it is liberation, it is free to take any form, so it is free to limit itself. And this is how delusion comes into being. Mind deludes itself into limitations. In other words, we create boundaries by believing in our limitations, which are build out of meaning.
So, here we are, limited by ideal like: exist, reality, unborn, true, false... But even those limitations are pure liberation in play. Their nature is liberation, they arise because they are free to arise.
Just by following logic we've end up in non-dual liberation.

:good:
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Re: Liberation

Postby lobster » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:36 am

I was thinking about how liberation can come into the state of being limited.


:thumbsup:

Limitation is the lock, the key, the prison and the prisoner. Liberation is the realisation nobody was ever free of thinking
otherwise . . .

"I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside."
Rumi
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Re: Liberation

Postby flowerbudh » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:26 am

Hmmm... awareness? Being?
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - The Buddha
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:16 am

flowerbudh wrote:Hmmm... awareness? Being?

The mind.
Look how it moves, how it is free to take shapes, and drop those shapes effortlessly. Free to focus and relax. Can take all the forms we know, and is not any particular one.
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