Liberation

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Liberation

Postby oushi » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:57 pm

Recently I've been fascinated by the logical consequences of "liberation", and all that this freedom implies. It isn't hard to find conventional freedom. We can simply take an example of prisoner being released from physical enslavement. But, what about ultimate liberation?

One of the first conclusions that came to my mind, was that it cannot be one particular state, because that would mean it is conditioned and limited. It cannot have a fixed form, but on the other hand, it cannot be prohibited to take any form. Speed up, low down, appear, disappear, change, stay fixed, etc. All those should be available for something that is liberated.

I know only one thing that shares the same qualities with liberation. A thing, that can transforms without limitations, has no fixed form, and is free to take all different forms. What do you think it may be?
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Re: Liberation

Postby futerko » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:00 pm

Cheese?
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:03 pm

futerko wrote:Cheese?

:rolling:
But, no!
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Re: Liberation

Postby futerko » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:04 pm

Cheese makes you dream... A dream?
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:06 pm

futerko wrote:Cheese makes you dream... A dream?

No, but closer.
On the other hand... it can take the form of both. :tongue:
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Re: Liberation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:18 pm

A dream about cheese?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:21 pm

And this form too... and ever other...
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Re: Liberation

Postby wisdom » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:01 pm

oushi wrote:Recently I've been fascinated by the logical consequences of "liberation", and all that this freedom implies. It isn't hard to find conventional freedom. We can simply take an example of prisoner being released from physical enslavement. But, what about ultimate liberation?

One of the first conclusions that came to my mind, was that it cannot be one particular state, because that would mean it is conditioned and limited. It cannot have a fixed form, but on the other hand, it cannot be prohibited to take any form. Speed up, low down, appear, disappear, change, stay fixed, etc. All those should be available for something that is liberated.

I know only one thing that shares the same qualities with liberation. A thing, that can transforms without limitations, has no fixed form, and is free to take all different forms. What do you think it may be?


Spontaneous presence is neither change nor transformation. Change deals with impure elemental substances which arise, abide and decay in time due to cause and effect. Nothing changes when enlightened mind appears to sentient beings to benefit them, enlightened mind has not transformed from one thing into another and then back again and ones view isn't going from impure to pure. Even if a Buddha appeared to become many objects, its just an appearance, nothing ever moves from Dharmakaya. Everything is a seamless one taste from that point of view, so we cant really speak of change or transformation because those concepts are on some level meaningless from the perspective of liberated mind.
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:09 am

You have presented a view which is composed of few mental states/concepts. Which one is liberation? Do you think there is liberation in that view, or the whole view is liberation?
I don't know why liberation should be limited to purity. What you have presented is a state which by definition cannot be liberation, because it is limited and fixed.
You say that "we cant really speak", and I say "we are free to speak". Which statement is free and which one limited?
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Re: Liberation

Postby Nothing » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:25 pm

oushi wrote:.....It cannot have a fixed form, but on the other hand, it cannot be prohibited to take any form.....
so it has to be the opposite which is.....formless.

For there to be form.....the opposite would be the void.

.....so it goes like this: Form is the void, the void is the form.
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:42 pm

It can take forms or be formless.
Liberation is freedom to take forms, or be formless.
Change is an indicator of freedom, while grasping after that which changes, is the cause of suffering.
What takes all forms without being bound by any one form?
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Re: Liberation

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:04 pm

oushi wrote:It can take forms or be formless.
Liberation is freedom to take forms, or be formless.


it can be formless while in form and with form while in formlessness. maybe.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:09 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:
oushi wrote:It can take forms or be formless.
Liberation is freedom to take forms, or be formless.


it can be formless while in form and with form while in formlessness. maybe.

Yes... what is this form we know it by? What is it called?
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Re: Liberation

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:16 pm

i make a correction.

It Is, instead it can be. maybe.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Liberation

Postby wisdom » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:37 pm

oushi wrote:You have presented a view which is composed of few mental states/concepts. Which one is liberation? Do you think there is liberation in that view, or the whole view is liberation?
I don't know why liberation should be limited to purity. What you have presented is a state which by definition cannot be liberation, because it is limited and fixed.
You say that "we cant really speak", and I say "we are free to speak". Which statement is free and which one limited?


The view itself as it is stated is not liberation, nor is thinking of it, studying it, or even understanding it. Only abiding in the view is liberation.

I think you misread what I wrote regarding purity, since I basically said liberated mind is beyond pure vs. impure. However this changeless reality is dynamic and alive, so its not just some cold and inert state either.

When I say "we cant really speak" of course I dont meant that we are restricted from speaking or should not speak, only that liberation itself is beyond words and speaking of it in terms of change and transformation is a bit of a misnomer. Although dynamic in its ability to manifest and appear as anything, enlightened mind itself is unborn so doesn't undergo "change". Hence, the "one taste".
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Re: Liberation

Postby flowerbudh » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:17 am

Oushi,
Were you thinking of energy?
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - The Buddha
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:22 am

flowerbudh wrote:Oushi,
Were you thinking of energy?

Energy can take many forms, but there are forms it cannot take. We can also pinpoint energy, but this thing, can be only pointed to.
What can take all forms, and still be formless?
hint: it's always present.

wisdom wrote:The view itself as it is stated is not liberation, nor is thinking of it, studying it, or even understanding it. Only abiding in the view is liberation.

What do you mean by abiding in the view if not thinking about it, or understanding it?
wisdom wrote:liberation itself is beyond words and speaking of it in terms of change and transformation is a bit of a misnomer.

So, I will ask. Before saying a word, did the Buddha give up liberation for the time of speaking?
wisdom wrote:Although dynamic in its ability to manifest and appear as anything, enlightened mind itself is unborn so doesn't undergo "change". Hence, the "one taste".

Can you give birth to your mind?
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Re: Liberation

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:51 am

oushi wrote:
wisdom wrote:The view itself as it is stated is not liberation, nor is thinking of it, studying it, or even understanding it. Only abiding in the view is liberation.

What do you mean by abiding in the view if not thinking about it, or understanding it?

wisdom wrote:liberation itself is beyond words and speaking of it in terms of change and transformation is a bit of a misnomer.

So, I will ask. Before saying a word, did the Buddha give up liberation for the time of speaking?

wisdom wrote:Although dynamic in its ability to manifest and appear as anything, enlightened mind itself is unborn so doesn't undergo "change". Hence, the "one taste".

Can you give birth to your mind?


i think abiding in the view is non-conceptual experience of the view, thus abiding in the view. if you think about the view you are not abiding in it. also understanding seems to hint at conceptual level of understanding.


can you give birth to your mind is insane question and point somewhere completely else than the truth or the true nature of reality.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Liberation

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:05 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:i think abiding in the view is non-conceptual experience of the view, thus abiding in the view.

Why is liberation forbidden to be conceptual experience of the view? Is this limitation more then just another view?
KonchokZoepa wrote:can you give birth to your mind is insane question and point somewhere completely else than the truth or the true nature of reality.

If one cannot give birth to mind, what undergoes change? This question is as insane as its counterpart, the unborn.

If you know that something points completely else then the truth or the true nature of reality, you need to know, where the true nature of reality is. Where is it then?
I do not have such a problem, because I know that by definition, unreal things do not exist, thus everything that exist, and can be pointed to, is reality.
Moreover, I don't limit liberation to only the unborn state, whatever it may be. Simply because liberation and limitation are opposites, liberation cannot be found through limitation. Thus, no matter what the limitation is, it doesn't point to anything we could call the true nature of reality.
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Re: Liberation

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:41 pm

oushi wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:i think abiding in the view is non-conceptual experience of the view, thus abiding in the view.

Why is liberation forbidden to be conceptual experience of the view? Is this limitation more then just another view?
KonchokZoepa wrote:can you give birth to your mind is insane question and point somewhere completely else than the truth or the true nature of reality.

If one cannot give birth to mind, what undergoes change? This question is as insane as its counterpart, the unborn.

If you know that something points completely else then the truth or the true nature of reality, you need to know, where the true nature of reality is. Where is it then?
I do not have such a problem, because I know that by definition, unreal things do not exist, thus everything that exist, and can be pointed to, is reality.
Moreover, I don't limit liberation to only the unborn state, whatever it may be. Simply because liberation and limitation are opposites, liberation cannot be found through limitation. Thus, no matter what the limitation is, it doesn't point to anything we could call the true nature of reality.


well for me conceptual level of understanding is in the dimension of the mind so its restricted to its limitations, the conceptual level is limited, and the non conceptual level is on the other hand unlimited and beyond mind, thus liberated. not restricted.

well if everything that exists, why do you ask a question that '' can you give birth to mind'' why with that logic that you just explained why dont you ask '' can you give birth to reality ''

and i dont understand what you mean by '' unreal '' things do not exist ? like what ? what do you mean ? what are unreal things ?

well with that logic, liberation cant be found in the non existence of limitations, meaning the opposite of limitation, i thought that buddha thaught the middle way, so maybe it is there.

seems to me also that you are trying to widen and liberate your conceptual framework. as to liberate it. which i see works to some degree.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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