Dzogchen vs Tantra

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby M.G. » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:49 pm

(A bit of background: I know much more about Dzogchen, which I've formally studied, than Tantra.)

I always thought this quote by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was an interesting one:

"The Jalu (in Tibetan), or Body of Light, realized through the practice of Dzigchen is different from the Gyulu, or Illusory Body, realized through the practices of the higher Tantras. The Gyulu is dependent on the subtle prana of the individual, and thus, since prana is always considered to be of the relative dimension in Dzogchen, this Gyulu is not considered Total Realization." 'The Crystal and the Way of Light', p. 158.

Is this position an uncontroversial one? (I'd imagine not.) And does it mean Tantric practices don't lead to Buddhahood? If so, why would anyone bother with them?
M.G.
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:56 pm

M.G. wrote:(A bit of background: I know much more about Dzogchen, which I've formally studied, than Tantra.)

I always thought this quote by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was an interesting one:

"The Jalu (in Tibetan), or Body of Light, realized through the practice of Dzigchen is different from the Gyulu, or Illusory Body, realized through the practices of the higher Tantras. The Gyulu is dependent on the subtle prana of the individual, and thus, since prana is always considered to be of the relative dimension in Dzogchen, this Gyulu is not considered Total Realization." 'The Crystal and the Way of Light', p. 158.

Is this position an uncontroversial one? (I'd imagine not.) And does it mean Tantric practices don't lead to Buddhahood? If so, why would anyone bother with them?



Just for poor, ignorant slobs who aren't ready for Atiyoga I suppose;)
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2144
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:49 am

The Vajravarahi sadhanas result in jalu great transference. Or leaving only hair and nails. Basically exactly what Ati does.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby M.G. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:51 am

invisiblediamond wrote:The Vajravarahi sadhanas result in jalu great transference. Or leaving only hair and nails. Basically exactly what Ati does.


Very interesting. So different tantric systems lead to different realizations.
M.G.
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:00 am

M.G. wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:The Vajravarahi sadhanas result in jalu great transference. Or leaving only hair and nails. Basically exactly what Ati does.


Very interesting. So different tantric systems lead to different realizations.


I think so. Father tantras Like Guhyasamaja mentions illusory body. The nondual tantras and mother tantras sadhanas talk about the body dissipating or going in body form to khecara.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby M.G. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:14 am

That's very interesting.
So if one attains the pure illusory body through the practice of father Tantra, does that eventually dissolve completely and result in Buddhahood?
M.G.
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:28 am

M.G. wrote:That's very interesting.
So if one attains the pure illusory body through the practice of father Tantra, does that eventually dissolve completely and result in Buddhahood?


They're all Buddhahood. Just different things happening to the body at death.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:46 am

asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby M.G. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:54 am

invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:That's very interesting.
So if one attains the pure illusory body through the practice of father Tantra, does that eventually dissolve completely and result in Buddhahood?


They're all Buddhahood. Just different things happening to the body at death.


So if the fruits of practice differ, but the fruits of Tantric and Dzogchen practice are Buddhahood, are there different types of Buddhas resulting from different practices?
M.G.
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:38 am

M.G. wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:That's very interesting.
So if one attains the pure illusory body through the practice of father Tantra, does that eventually dissolve completely and result in Buddhahood?


They're all Buddhahood. Just different things happening to the body at death.


So if the fruits of practice differ, but the fruits of Tantric and Dzogchen practice are Buddhahood, are there different types of Buddhas resulting from different practices?


No. There is only on Dharmakaya.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:48 am

Depends who you ask I'm sure, Dzogchen is held to produce a buddhahood which is superior even to other dharma vehicles, as Malcolm has shared before: "this is why the Dzogchen doctrine of two different kinds of Buddhahood is critical -- the first, the buddhahood that reverts the basis is the buddhahood asserted by all lower vehicles. The buddhahood that does not revert to the basis is the preserve of only Dzogchen".
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:43 am

just to make a notion related to the title of the thread.

in my experience dzogchen might be easier and better for lay people since tantra practically and basically requires at least one or two three year retreats to actually make progress.

and through direct introduction you start to discover naturally and automatically your natural state without this long path of tantra.

of course dzogchen practice takes time and may require retreat but i still consider it for me a better path then tantra, due to the retreats necessary, and the money that i lack to be able to attend such retreats.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1267
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby M.G. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:39 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:Depends who you ask I'm sure, Dzogchen is held to produce a buddhahood which is superior even to other dharma vehicles, as Malcolm has shared before: "this is why the Dzogchen doctrine of two different kinds of Buddhahood is critical -- the first, the buddhahood that reverts the basis is the buddhahood asserted by all lower vehicles. The buddhahood that does not revert to the basis is the preserve of only Dzogchen".



Does sound like there are different attainments or states called "Buddhahood."
M.G.
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby M.G. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:48 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:just to make a notion related to the title of the thread.

in my experience dzogchen might be easier and better for lay people since tantra practically and basically requires at least one or two three year retreats to actually make progress.

and through direct introduction you start to discover naturally and automatically your natural state without this long path of tantra.

of course dzogchen practice takes time and may require retreat but i still consider it for me a better path then tantra, due to the retreats necessary, and the money that i lack to be able to attend such retreats.


Honestly, I've never personally met anyone who developed or claimed to develop realization purely through tantric practice. I suppose one would have to speak to such an individual to get their take.
M.G.
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby Jikan » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:15 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:Rainbow body may not be what you think it is:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2013/03/rainbow-body-and-thusnesss-advise.html?m=1


I don't know of the author of this item. Is this an authoritative or accurate account?
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4285
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:29 pm

Jikan wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Rainbow body may not be what you think it is:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2013/03/rainbow-body-and-thusnesss-advise.html?m=1


I don't know of the author of this item. Is this an authoritative or accurate account?

The account of Kunzang Dechen Lingpa? Yes it is apparently an authoritative account.
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby Jikan » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:34 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:The account of Kunzang Dechen Lingpa? Yes it is apparently an authoritative account.


Of course. I should have been clearer--I was asking about the first-person voice of the author of the awakening to reality blog, who is the one I know nothing about.
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4285
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Dzogchen vs Tantra

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:47 pm

Jikan wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:The account of Kunzang Dechen Lingpa? Yes it is apparently an authoritative account.


Of course. I should have been clearer--I was asking about the first-person voice of the author of the awakening to reality blog, who is the one I know nothing about.

Ah the author is AEN who posts here as xabir, though he writes quite often he didn't write anything himself in that piece. Just referenced Malcolm's statements and some from the Kunzang Dechen Lingpa article (along with some insight from his own mentor).
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm


Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dan74, Lhug-Pa, Lotus108, MSNbot Media, Simon E. and 18 guests

>