Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:00 pm

So, I'm reading along in this thread, thinking to myself that for once the posts and replies are short, when lo! and behold i come across Mr. Chatty who just cant seem to limit his replies to something a little more manageable. Oh well.

There is one line however that seems to me to be worthy of commentary. That is:

"there is no place for the thought / feeling to stick to."

This is exactly it. This is what the dzogchen masters introduces the student to. This is in fact what your nature of mind is: that function in you, that has existed in a pure fashion from the beginning, that nothing whatsoever can stick to. If I sound like i know what I'm talking about, ha, ha, maybe I do. Just this once and just now, here, I will tell you that OB has it exactly correct. The nature of your mind, all minds, Mind, is just this: that function to which nothing sticks. The masters re-introduces the student to that aspect of him/herself (i say re-introduces because it's been there from the beginning) and from that moment on, it is the students responsibility to expand this function.

At the time of the introduction, perhaps there is only a second or two in which nothing sticks. But then slowly, slowly (as the Master says), these few seconds increase. Until which time as nothing that can arise, in any experience whatsoever, has any ability to stick anywhere. This last statement is a bit of conjecture on my part, since i haven't experienced anything anywhere near that complete, but nonetheless, i am confident that this is what can occur.

However, the really important question that has arisen in this thread is whether to put bananas or blueberries on the morning granola.

:shrug:

Bananas are Ok, blueberries are Ok, neither is Ok or both are Ok. I don't really care.

Ciao.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:05 pm

oldbob wrote:
M.G. wrote:A philosophical question:

Why is Dzogchen the path beyond cause and effect? Aren't the fruits of practice an effect?


:namaste: Homage to the Dzogchen Masters.

Lots of good responses. :good: :good: :good:

The conventional answers have already been well given (though personally I like the blueberries on granola- but why be choosy - a sliced up banana also works for me, and I also recommend sprinkling a little bee pollen for color, flavor, and extra vits.)

My 2 cents.

Perhaps it is better to refer these types of questions to Dzogchen Masters and for me, not to say anything - :smile: Because Dzogchen is beyond words, or any attempt at any description through language, this would be a correct answer, but this doesn't answer the question for most people, and most people are too shy to ask the Masters. :smile:

So please have patience with my lack of experience and clarity if I foolishly try to put minds at rest through the use of well-intentioned words.

When conventional language is applied to speak about why Dzogchen is the path beyond cause and effect, from within the conventional point of view, for example: "why are not the fruits of practice an effect of practice?", it is clear that FROM THIS POINT OF VIEW, AND USE OF LANGUAGE, that Dzogchen is not beyond cause and effect.

It is only from within the extremely precise use of language from within the Dzogchen direct experience (to which language cannot adhere, and which does not posit ANY point of view or duality) that stating that Dzogchen is a path beyond cause and effect makes sense and can be understood. In the "instant presence," the natural state beyond all dualities, the issue, or question, of cause and effect does not arise. This, and ALL mental / emotional fabrications would be like writing on air or water, in the sense that there is no place for the thought / feeling to stick to.

In the natural state, whatever arises is co-emergent with its liberation, in a non-dual way. The example of a snake untying its own knot is used, but even this example is using a duality to point to a non-dual experience. All words can only point to this experience, hence the entry door of Dzogchen is being introduced to the natural mind by a Dzogchen Master, through direct introduction. The experience of Dzogchen cannot be found through books or on DW.

So, while in the conventional use of language, you might say that direct introduction is the cause of the students gaining the direct experience of their natural mind, but from within Dzogchen, the question does not arise, because words and logic do not apply.

That said, a lot has been written about the experience of Dzogchen, using specialized non-conventional use of language, so that those outside of this experience can relate to this experience beyond words. So the sources cited, are references to words about a subject to which words do not apply.

Isn't it amazing!

There are many DW threads that have looked at this issue. Here are 2 from among the many.

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8489&p=103015&hilit=vajra+laughs#p102643

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10185&hilit=vajra+laughs#p128254


I would refer you to the 12 Vajra Laughs and the 9 Amazing Things AND /OR "The Marvelous Primordial State", for direct sources as to how Dzogchen refers to itself regarding cause and effect. These words used to be considered secret, and given that they are now searchable on the web, / openly available, it may seem senseless to ask the reader to do the search, but out of respect for the views of others I will ask the reader to make the search.

Perhaps the new "secret" is that words about Dzogchen are self-secret until you get the direct experience to unlock what they are pointing to. :smile:

Please recall that these are words which come from within the Dzogchen experience, and conventional language / logic cannot enter that amazing dimension beyond words.

Yes, this is amazing and cannot be understood by language, reason, or logic. If you still have any questions about these issues, please refer them to Dzogchen Masters.

And I should mention that I, too, have greatly benefited from studying the gradual paths of Buddhism. They all go beyond words.

May this help the minds of those who read this (and those who do not) to rest in the natural state beyond words.



Hope this helps,

ob


A very good answer. Thanks.

I've had the experience of the teachings (though I'm no longer a Dzogchen practitioner) and I'm still working on the correct philosophical understanding thereto, so even when Dzogchen is taken on its own terms I'd say conventional language plays a useful role in framing understanding.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:09 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
"there is no place for the thought / feeling to stick to."

This is exactly it. This is what the dzogchen masters introduces the student to. This is in fact what your nature of mind is: that function in you, that has existed in a pure fashion from the beginning, that nothing whatsoever can stick to. If I sound like i know what I'm talking about, ha, ha, maybe I do. Just this once and just now, here, I will tell you that OB has it exactly correct. The nature of your mind, all minds, Mind, is just this: that function to which nothing sticks. The masters re-introduces the student to that aspect of him/herself (i say re-introduces because it's been there from the beginning) and from that moment on, it is the students responsibility to expand this function.

At the time of the introduction, perhaps there is only a second or two in which nothing sticks. But then slowly, slowly (as the Master says), these few seconds increase. Until which time as nothing that can arise, in any experience whatsoever, has any ability to stick anywhere. This last statement is a bit of conjecture on my part, since i haven't experienced anything anywhere near that complete, but nonetheless, i am confident that this is what can occur.

However, the really important question that has arisen in this thread is whether to put bananas or blueberries on the morning granola.

:shrug:

Bananas are Ok, blueberries are Ok, neither is Ok or both are Ok. I don't really care.

Ciao.


A very good summary of what, from a relative sense, could be called the gradual fruit or causal effect of Dzogchen practice.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:28 pm

M.G. wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:This doesn't make DC causal.


At least from a conventional perspective the result seems to have a cause.


Not even that. Conventionally teacher transmits directly.


Would receiving and understanding the transmission be a cause? Or at least a catalyst, which could be likened to a cause?[/quote]

Yes. But that's not a path. So not a causal path. Paths you go to retreat and after long time finally arriving at that state.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:39 pm

M.G. wrote:One more question.

The conventional phraseology is that Dzogchen is a superior path to tantra. Could one plausibly argue that for people of a particular disposition and capacity, tantra, with its fabrication and magical creation, might be the superior path?


From a Dzogchen perspective that is for oneself to decide. Anuyoga methods are transformation with DC view. Also one can receive Mahayoga methods. From what I've been taught you discover your limitations yourself. So one should check oneself to see if the limitation comes from some limited ability or perhaps from a bias and doubt which could just be pride in the way. DC and Kagyu agree that our three kayas are complete without anything to develop. In that case to key to practice is just to relax and allow the impediments to self liberate. ChNN practices two stages as his main practice. Most DC masters will have a strong devotion to some deity. Dorje Drollo has been big in past few centuries. Vajravarahi is a sadhana with instant generation from no bija. The benefit being one can quickly realize the point of these methods and if you are combining with the three series of DC, then one can come to a point of dropping everything and becoming an un grumpy old man with nothing left to do.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:59 pm

M.G. wrote: A very good summary of what, from a relative sense, could be called the gradual fruit or causal effect of Dzogchen practice.


M.G.

Your comment is understandable. Any explantion will emerge from the relative sense and will appear, due to the dualistic nature of language, as casual. At least, that's how I see any attempt to describe how dzogchen is a path beyond cause and effect.

Undoubtably, there are those who could offer much better explanations than I.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:38 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:One more question.

The conventional phraseology is that Dzogchen is a superior path to tantra. Could one plausibly argue that for people of a particular disposition and capacity, tantra, with its fabrication and magical creation, might be the superior path?


From a Dzogchen perspective that is for oneself to decide. Anuyoga methods are transformation with DC view. Also one can receive Mahayoga methods. From what I've been taught you discover your limitations yourself. So one should check oneself to see if the limitation comes from some limited ability or perhaps from a bias and doubt which could just be pride in the way. DC and Kagyu agree that our three kayas are complete without anything to develop. In that case to key to practice is just to relax and allow the impediments to self liberate. ChNN practices two stages as his main practice. Most DC masters will have a strong devotion to some deity. Dorje Drollo has been big in past few centuries. Vajravarahi is a sadhana with instant generation from no bija. The benefit being one can quickly realize the point of these methods and if you are combining with the three series of DC, then one can come to a point of dropping everything and becoming an un grumpy old man with nothing left to do.


This is a good answer.
I was thinking that for some people, the ways of working with the subtle body used in completion stage tantra might be more efficacious than the Dzogchen techniques.

This is actually not totally hypothetical, since in my own life, I found (non-Buddhist) subtle body type- practices helped me deal with my neuroses better than Dzogchen practices. I do understand that from a Dzogchen perspective one is free to use whatever one finds beneficial, but in practice I think financial and family demands make it tough for non-ascetics to engage more than one path in a deep way.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:51 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
M.G. wrote: A very good summary of what, from a relative sense, could be called the gradual fruit or causal effect of Dzogchen practice.


M.G.

Your comment is understandable. Any explantion will emerge from the relative sense and will appear, due to the dualistic nature of language, as casual. At least, that's how I see any attempt to describe how dzogchen is a path beyond cause and effect.

Undoubtably, there are those who could offer much better explanations than I.


I think in a relative sense it probably is useful, and perhaps most honest (if non-traditional) to conceptualize Dzogchen as causal, although this thread has certainly clarified the traditional phraseology for me, which also has logical merit.

Sometimes 'x' can be in some sense true and in some sense false even as a competing statement, 'y' is either wholly true or in some sense true, depending on perspective.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:13 pm

M.G. wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:One more question.

The conventional phraseology is that Dzogchen is a superior path to tantra. Could one plausibly argue that for people of a particular disposition and capacity, tantra, with its fabrication and magical creation, might be the superior path?


From a Dzogchen perspective that is for oneself to decide. Anuyoga methods are transformation with DC view. Also one can receive Mahayoga methods. From what I've been taught you discover your limitations yourself. So one should check oneself to see if the limitation comes from some limited ability or perhaps from a bias and doubt which could just be pride in the way. DC and Kagyu agree that our three kayas are complete without anything to develop. In that case to key to practice is just to relax and allow the impediments to self liberate. ChNN practices two stages as his main practice. Most DC masters will have a strong devotion to some deity. Dorje Drollo has been big in past few centuries. Vajravarahi is a sadhana with instant generation from no bija. The benefit being one can quickly realize the point of these methods and if you are combining with the three series of DC, then one can come to a point of dropping everything and becoming an un grumpy old man with nothing left to do.


This is a good answer.
I was thinking that for some people, the ways of working with the subtle body used in completion stage tantra might be more efficacious than the Dzogchen techniques.

This is actually not totally hypothetical, since in my own life, I found (non-Buddhist) subtle body type- practices helped me deal with my neuroses better than Dzogchen practices. I do understand that from a Dzogchen perspective one is free to use whatever one finds beneficial, but in practice I think financial and family demands make it tough for non-ascetics to engage more than one path in a deep way.


Prob true. But consider that you might just have a past life bias for Vajrayana. And a past life doubt about self liberation. The idea that this is tech that works or doesn't work is just bias. Preference. Taste. Perhaps. But reality is as it is, groundless. So self liberation has "to work".
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:30 pm

futerko wrote:The causal path method for developing bodhicitta, for example, is to cultivate loving-kindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity. So its like gradually making a synthesis from component parts which will eventually give rise to a complete result.
If Nagarjuna heard this he would have a fit! If bodhicitta is not here and now then where is it? If it is in the "parts" then what distinguishes the "parts" from the "whole"? How can the "whole" be a sum of the "parts", surely either it is a "whole" or it is "parts"? Ad nauseum...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby futerko » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:37 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
futerko wrote:The causal path method for developing bodhicitta, for example, is to cultivate loving-kindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity. So its like gradually making a synthesis from component parts which will eventually give rise to a complete result.
If Nagarjuna heard this he would have a fit! If bodhicitta is not here and now then where is it? If it is in the "parts" then what distinguishes the "parts" from the "whole"? How can the "whole" be a sum of the "parts", surely either it is a "whole" or it is "parts"? Ad nauseum...


I did say "method for developing" not the nature of bodhicitta itself, but Nagarjuna's thinking on causality is pretty astonishing in itself.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:32 am

"This is actually not totally hypothetical, since in my own life, I found (non-Buddhist) subtle body type- practices helped me deal with my neuroses better than Dzogchen practices. I do understand that from a Dzogchen perspective one is free to use whatever one finds beneficial, but in practice I think financial and family demands make it tough for non-ascetics to engage more than one path in a deep way."

'Prob true. But consider that you might just have a past life bias for Vajrayana. And a past life doubt about self liberation. The idea that this is tech that works or doesn't work is just bias. Preference. Taste. Perhaps. But reality is as it is, groundless. So self liberation has "to work".'

Possibly, though whatever the reason I suspect I'm one of those people who lacks the capacity to benefit from Dzogchen practice. Hey, we do exist. :smile:
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby gad rgyangs » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:38 am

M.G. wrote: I suspect I'm one of those people who lacks the capacity to benefit from Dzogchen practice. Hey, we do exist. :smile:


Dzogchen is nothing but pointing out our real nature. That means yours too! Its just like becoming lucid in a dream, that is, knowing you are dreaming while still in the dream. You can become lucid in this waking dream too, thats what Buddha meant when he said "I am awake". The only difference is, when we awake out of a nighttime dream, we awaken to this waking dream. When, with a little help from a knowledge-holder (rigdzin) we awake during this waking dream, we awaken all the way to our real nature, which is called the base. All this is explained over, and over, and over again in the teachings that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives and are broadcast freely over the interwebs. Not only that, but he gives actual introduction. And that is what its all about: being introduced to your real nature, as in "o, hi, pleased to meet you! what, you were here all along? I must have been sleeping!"

Dzogchen is for everybody!

http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:00 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
M.G. wrote: I suspect I'm one of those people who lacks the capacity to benefit from Dzogchen practice. Hey, we do exist. :smile:


Dzogchen is nothing but pointing out our real nature. That means yours too! Its just like becoming lucid in a dream, that is, knowing you are dreaming while still in the dream. You can become lucid in this waking dream too, thats what Buddha meant when he said "I am awake". The only difference is, when we awake out of a nighttime dream, we awaken to this waking dream. When, with a little help from a knowledge-holder (rigdzin) we awake during this waking dream, we awaken all the way to our real nature, which is called the base. All this is explained over, and over, and over again in the teachings that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives and are broadcast freely over the interwebs. Not only that, but he gives actual introduction. And that is what its all about: being introduced to your real nature, as in "o, hi, pleased to meet you! what, you were here all along? I must have been sleeping!"

Dzogchen is for everybody!

http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php


I'd say that recognizing the state of natural awareness would benefit everyone, but I wouldn't say that Dzogchen is the best path for everyone.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby muni » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:10 am

I agree, there must be medicine for all.

Whether beyond or not, I guess we first recognize the qualified skills beyond words ( by words...) to awaken us when they are presented. Cause and effect.

With my head sticking in habitual created mud, I recognize no Wisdom. And my ears are not hearing the pointing, they too are filled by mud. Cause and effect. I cannot see beyond my clouds, while it is said that the boundless ones are shining nonstop. Causeless.

Open heart - open mind is a key to unlock habitual grasping to all apprehended and so to reveal non apprehended, beyond cause and effect. Something like that a teaching told. Another told: it is realized through faith alone. ( not through a habitual definition of faith) And we all have the potential.

Revealing beyond is not sticking by Dzogchen only, this is already said.

:namaste:
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby muni » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:18 pm

The great perfection (Dzogchen) can be translated as the natural perfection. I think if we cling to direct method we can be longer on the road then we wish. If we feel no connection, that is because there is another connection available, not?

At least one should never lose courage.

With my deepest respect to all Dzogchen Masters and all Masters. :namaste:
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby Snovid » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:01 pm

I would like to share with you my own thoughts/discover about Dzogchen.
Lot has been said about the fact that in Dzogchen
the most important is get rid of own limitations,right?
If so
what for all these secrets and prohibitions talk?
Do not talk to anyone,even with other students of Dzogchen
If you ask someone for something, you break samaya and then
you lose ability to achieve realization in this life.

This is Huge Limitation.
I am from Poland I use google translator I do not know English
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:09 pm

M.G. wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
M.G. wrote: I suspect I'm one of those people who lacks the capacity to benefit from Dzogchen practice. Hey, we do exist. :smile:


Dzogchen is nothing but pointing out our real nature. That means yours too! Its just like becoming lucid in a dream, that is, knowing you are dreaming while still in the dream. You can become lucid in this waking dream too, thats what Buddha meant when he said "I am awake". The only difference is, when we awake out of a nighttime dream, we awaken to this waking dream. When, with a little help from a knowledge-holder (rigdzin) we awake during this waking dream, we awaken all the way to our real nature, which is called the base. All this is explained over, and over, and over again in the teachings that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives and are broadcast freely over the interwebs. Not only that, but he gives actual introduction. And that is what its all about: being introduced to your real nature, as in "o, hi, pleased to meet you! what, you were here all along? I must have been sleeping!"

Dzogchen is for everybody!

http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php


I'd say that recognizing the state of natural awareness would benefit everyone, but I wouldn't say that Dzogchen is the best path for everyone.


All paths are included in Dzogchen. There is tsa-lung for example.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:44 pm

"All paths are included in Dzogchen. There is tsa-lung for example."

In principle, sure, but various systems emphasize and have developed certain paths in different and greater or lesser ways than others.
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Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Snowid wrote:I would like to share with you my own thoughts/discover about Dzogchen.
Lot has been said about the fact that in Dzogchen
the most important is get rid of own limitations,right?
If so
what for all these secrets and prohibitions talk?
Do not talk to anyone,even with other students of Dzogchen
If you ask someone for something, you break samaya and then
you lose ability to achieve realization in this life.

This is Huge Limitation.


How secret is the teaching at this point? Instructions right up until the Togal are publicly available in print.
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