Myth in Buddhism

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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Sara H » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:11 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:

Gelukpa. Obviously.

Is that obvious?


Yes, because the Gelukpa are alone among the Tibetan schools in positing that through reason alone one can become enlightened.


If that's true, that explains a lot about the Dalai Lama.

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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:33 am

Sara H wrote:Emotions actually do exist.
No they do not. They arise on the basis of causes and conditions and when the causes and conditions are not present they fade away. If they actually did exist, if they existed in an essential manner from their own side then we would be permanently angry, happy, sad, etc... The fact that they come and go is proof of their not having an actual existence.
They are a part of our human nature.
Show me your human nature. Show me the essence of your humanity. Can't can you? That's because there is no such thing. There are a number of characteristics (arising again based on causes and conditions) common amongst this category, that we describe as human, but (again) there is nothing essential there. The fact that in the past you were not human, and in the future may not be human again means that you do not possess a human nature.
You're looking at it as something that is apart from the Buddha Nature which is wrong.
So the five poisons are part of the Tathagatagarbha?
They are not simply a figment of our imaginations made real.
Of course they are. If they are not simply a figment of our imagination, then show me their essence. Again you cannot...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Namgyal » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:10 am

Sara H wrote:A farmer who spends all day plowing the field, without doing any "reasoned analysis" at all, is perfectly capable of doing perfect Buddhist practice

The old farmer looks up from harvesting and spies his strong grandson at the edge of the field chatting with the neighbour's young daughter, and he smiles to himself. Human life, why is it the only one in the all the cosmos which can lead to awakening?
'It is precisely because we must figure with perpetual separation that I am determined to win liberation for then I shall no more be torn from my kindred.' (Shakyamuni)

The brave heart of Lord Buddha, and the passionate heart of Lord Amitabha....just poisons, right?
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby jeeprs » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:24 am

GregKavarnos wrote:They (emotions) arise on the basis of causes and conditions and when the causes and conditions are not present they fade away.


But you can't say on that account they don't exist. Many things exist which are insubstantial or fleeting. They may not have any inherent reality but in the matrix of our worldly lives they play a role. After all 'crimes of passion' can be used as a defense in a court of law. So whilst I see what you're saying, I think to express it in those bald terms is misleading. Emotons exist in our conventional reality and must be dealt with on that level - denying them won't necessarily assist in doing that.
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:43 am

jeeprs wrote:But you can't say on that account they don't exist.
I didn't say that they don't exist, I responded to the claim that they "actually" exist. They don't "actually" exist, they exist on the basis of causes and conditions.
Emotons exist in our conventional reality and must be dealt with on that level
Really? And here's me thinking that the way to "actually" deal with the five poisons is to become enlightened, that everything else is just dealing with the symptoms.
...denying them won't necessarily assist in doing that.
Who's denying what?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Namgyal » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:53 am

Image
Huseng wrote:...love songs and sagas are consequently written celebrating what was disruptive behaviour.
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby muni » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:56 am

Sara H wrote:
If that's true, that explains a lot about the Dalai Lama.

Sara


Not exactly. For me percieved characteristics about a person, doesn't reveal clarity.

"The nature of our mind is very pure. It has the qualities of clarity and knowing. Buddhists call the Buddha Nature “the mind of clear light” (Enlightenment) where no negative thoughts or emotions arise. It shines through if we are quieting all abstract concepts and thoughts and become aware of the underlying stillness of the mind directly." Dalai Lama.

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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Namgyal » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:02 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Who's denying what?

'When these disturbing emotions are purified, the five wisdoms shine forth. Realization of the five wisdoms is realization of the Five Dhyani Buddhas'. (Thrangu)

Thats 'purified' not 'rejected'.
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:08 pm

Namgyal wrote:Thats 'purified' not 'rejected'.
Who's rejecting what? If I remember correctly I said "deal with the five poisons".
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:09 pm

jeeprs wrote:
GregKavarnos wrote:They (emotions) arise on the basis of causes and conditions and when the causes and conditions are not present they fade away.


But you can't say on that account they don't exist. Many things exist which are insubstantial or fleeting. They may not have any inherent reality but in the matrix of our worldly lives they play a role.


I prefer to use the word "occur". Similar to "arise".
It means that "real" or not, there is the experience of it.
This avoids the whole problem with the word "exist".
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby jeeprs » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:15 pm

Avoids it, indeed.

(Actually what you're saying here is precisely equivalent to 'phenomenology', and indeed Buddhist philosophy does have a great deal in common with that. I am working on the notion that there are 'degrees of reality', which is something else again - but I shall leave that for another thread.)
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby MalaBeads » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:20 pm

Re: the use of the word "exist". I agree with PadmaVonSamba. The word itself has always been problematic for me. Poor choice of English, imo. "Occur" is much better.

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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Namgyal » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:46 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So the five poisons are part of the Tathagatagarbha?

'All Buddhas possess the five primordial wisdoms and the four kayas. The first of the five male wisdom beings is Vajrasattva in the East, or Akshobhya. His quality is mirror-like wisdom, which is transformed anger. The consort of Akshobhya is Vajra Dakini. The second affliction is pride. When it is transformed, it becomes the wisdom of equanimity, which is Ratnasambhava in the South. and whose consort is Rinchen Dakini. The third affliction is attachment, which is transformed into the wisdom of discriminating awareness, the quality of Amitabha, the Buddha of the West. The consort of Amitabha is Lotus Dakini. The fourth affliction is jealousy. It is transformed into all accomplishing wisdom whose deity is Amoghasiddhi in the North, and whose consort is Karma Dakini. The fifth affliction is ignorance which is transformed into all pervasive wisdom, the Buddha Vairochana in the center, whose consort is Buddha Dakini.' (Drupon Thinley Nyingpo Rinpoche)
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Namgyal » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If they are not simply a figment of our imagination, then show me their essence. Again you cannot...

'The Five Pure Lights give rise to the five great powers or energies. The white pure light gives rise to the power of compassion; the green pure light gives rise to the power of peace; the red pure light gives rise to the power of depth; the blue pure light gives rise to the power of generosity; the yellow pure light gives rise to the power of wisdom.' (Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.)
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:09 pm

Sara H wrote:He didn't ask you whether you think Buddhism should be ecumenical, he asked you what school your teacher belongs to.

And so the answer you gave was a lie. There is not a specific subcategory school within Buddhism itself that is also known as the "Buddhism School". "The Buddhist school of Buddhism"

No.

That was a lie Huseng.

What school does your teacher belong to?

Intentionally answering someone from a different point of view, when that was not the point of view they were asking from, is being dishonest.



This is egregiously arrogant and juvenile Sara. Huseng is under no obligation to tell anyone here who his master is and which school he belongs to if he didn't feel like sharing that info.
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Namgyal » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:15 pm

pueraeternus wrote:Huseng is under no obligation to tell anyone here who his master is and which school he belongs to if he didn't feel like sharing that info.

True. Even so, such 'fancy footwork' inevitably detracts from his credibility.
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:23 pm

Namgyal wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:Huseng is under no obligation to tell anyone here who his master is and which school he belongs to if he didn't feel like sharing that info.

True. Even so, such 'fancy footwork' inevitably detracts from his credibility.
:namaste:


I disagree. I fully respect his and any one's desire to not share that information with others here. It's obvious that Huseng is Buddhist, not as if it is someone masquerading as a Buddhist and attacking us as a whole. That is the only reason I can think of that we may have a right to question a poster's religious affiliation to reveal his intention.
When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path I promised a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern humans deny with words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, conditions they call peace. Even as they speak, they create seeds of turmoil and violence.

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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:38 pm

Namgyal wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:Huseng is under no obligation to tell anyone here who his master is and which school he belongs to if he didn't feel like sharing that info.

True. Even so, such 'fancy footwork' inevitably detracts from his credibility.
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:38 pm

@ Namgyal

It is one thing to say that the Tathagatagarbha includes anger and another thing to say that mirror like wisdom arises through the transformation of anger.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Myth in Buddhism

Postby Namgyal » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:50 pm

pueraeternus wrote:That is the only reason I can think of that we may have a right to question a poster's religious affiliation...

Another would be to propose that all Buddhist teachers are inessential, then reply to the counter-argument with the apparent volte-face of actually serving a Buddhist teacher (who shall remain secret). In such circumstances it would be better to 'sail under one's own flag'.
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