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Reincarnation - Dhamma Wheel

Reincarnation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
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Reincarnation

Postby chownah » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:47 am

Seems like if someone has not been able to penetrate the teachings on not-self or the teachings on having no doctrine of self then someone can only accept reincarnation and not rebirth.....seems like the degree that someone has penetrated the delusion of self is the same degree which it is possible for them to accept rebirth....otherwise it is just reincarnation.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:55 am

Greetings Chownah,

I think that's as true as far as it goes, but I believe punabhava (commonly translated as rebirth) is actually the repeated false cognition of existence, rather than any post-mortem transmigratory event. Sometimes I don't think "rebirth", as it's used in Buddhist circles, isn't as far away from "reincarnation" as it ought to be.

[Note to members: As much as possible, please try to keep to the topic raised by Chownah, lest this become just another appendix to the Great Rebirth Debate. Thanks.]

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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ground
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby ground » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:58 am

Or perhaps someone who "has been able to penetrate the teachings on not-self" simply does not ponder on re-birth.
The "re-" in re-birth just stand for "again" or "repetition", right?
So to say "there is re-birth" is to say "there is again birth" and that simply means that what is called "birth" happens again. Now isn't that true that birth happens again and again?


Kind regards

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mikenz66
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:42 am

Perhaps someone could explain what they see as the key difference between "reincarnation" and "rebirth"? I've never been able to figure out what the difference is supposed to be since they are synonyms in normal English usage.

Now normal English usage (glancing through a Collins dictionary I happen to have at hand) uses the concept of rebirth or reincarnation of a "soul", so actually neither rebirth nor reincarnation are appropriate terms with respect to Buddhist doctrine.

I do know that some argue that "the Buddha taught rebirth but not reincarnation" but in order to make that argument stick it is necessary to give a more restrictive definition of "rebirth". Which is OK, as long as that is what is intended.


:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:57 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:06 am

Greetings Mike,

Nice post.

I think the tendency for punabhava and patisandhi to be regarded synonymously as rebirth, in English, contributes to the broadening of the spectrum of disparate notions and views that fall under the banner of "rebirth".

To me, as I understand it, punabbhava has nothing to do with transmigration, whereas patisandhi unambiguously does.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:11 am


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rowboat
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby rowboat » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:19 am

I don't read this sort of thing any way but just as what it says, what it implies. I take it quite literally.

___________________________

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "I have seen beings who — endowed with bodily good conduct, verbal good conduct, & mental good conduct; who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — at the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destination, the heavenly world. It is not from having heard this from other priests & contemplatives that I tell you that I have seen beings who — endowed with bodily good conduct, verbal good conduct, & mental good conduct; who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — at the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destination, the heavenly world. It is from having known it myself, seen it myself, realized it myself that I tell you that I have seen beings who — endowed with bodily good conduct, verbal good conduct, & mental good conduct; who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — at the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destination, the heavenly world. "


With mind rightly directed,
speaking right speech,
doing right deeds with the body:
a person here
of much learning,
a doer of merit
here in this life so short,
at the break-up of the body,
discerning,
reappears in heaven.




http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-071

__________________________
Last edited by rowboat on Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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tiltbillings
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:22 am


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rowboat
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby rowboat » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:26 am

Pardon my carelessness. Thank you for the reminder.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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mikenz66
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:27 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:25 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:28 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:46 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:24 am


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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:06 am

Greetings Mike,

Yes, that's what I was agreeing with (though I would still say "inferred")

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:28 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Mawkish1983
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:30 am

It would be much easier if we could all fluently read Pali. Maybe that's why there were more arahants millennia ago than now. Sorry, that's off topic.

With regards to punabbhava, jati and patisandhi; is it best not to translate these words?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:42 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:48 am



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