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Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom? - Dhamma Wheel

Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
phil
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Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby phil » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:04 am

Hi all

Does the Buddha tell us to forcefully oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom so that they fall away in the light of wisdom or both? Presumedly the answer is both, but does this depend more on the nature and power of the defilement, or the degree of understanding and other wholesome factors available in the listener?

Thanks for any thoughts on this.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

alan
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby alan » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:58 am

Here is a good place to start.

alan
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby alan » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:12 am

Hi Phil. Here is another good one on your subject. Taken together they should go a long way towards answering the question.

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Tex
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby Tex » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:42 am

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

santa100
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby santa100 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:26 am

MN 20 is great ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ). It provides an effective strategic approach on how to handle unwholesome states. I like its practical multi-line defense structure. So, sometimes you can just observe with wisdom, but sometime you'll have to really "clench your teeth and press your tongue against the roof of your mouth" as described in MN 20 to really get things done..

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:39 am


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ground
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby ground » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:49 am


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Ben
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby Ben » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:34 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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ground
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby ground » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:57 am


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Ben
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby Ben » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:17 am

Hi Ming

Granted its not the entire four sammappadhana but for one who is beginning on the path, the cultivation of the first sammappadhana would seem to me to be right effort. Its a beginning. And it also seems to me that the sammappadhanas are iterative and mutually supportive in their development. Just some thoughts...
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

phil
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Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby phil » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:35 pm

Thanks for your respsonses so far, all. I agree that Mn 19 and 20 are key for this point. Perhaps someday I will finally
come to remember which one is which! :smile:


I wonder what is meant when BB uses "evil, unwholesome states" in some suttas. Is that use of "evil" assigning a darker degree of akusala? For example, see Sn 35:96....here we have "if a bhikkhu does not abandon them, dispel them, put an end to them and obliterate them he should understand thus: 'I am declining away from unwholesome states.". Those verbs, their seeming redundancy - are they pointing at some particularly intolerable defilement?
Last edited by phil on Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

rowyourboat
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:43 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Defilements

3. "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind?[2]

(1) Covetousness and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind;
(2) ill will is a defilement of the mind;
(3) anger is a defilement of the mind;
(4) hostility...
(5) denigration...
(6) domineering...
(7) envy...
(8) jealousy...
(9) hypocrisy...
(10) fraud...
(11) obstinacy...
(12) presumption...
(13) conceit...
(14) arrogance...
(15) vanity...
(16) negligence is a defilement of the mind.[3]
[vattupama sutta]

Five lower fetters & five higher fetters.
And which are the five lower fetters?
Self-identity views,
uncertainty,
grasping at precepts & practices,
sensual desire, &
ill will. These are the five lower fetters.

And which are the five higher fetters?
Passion for form,
passion for what is formless,
conceit,
restlessness,
& ignorance. These are the five higher fetters.
And these are the ten fetters."
[samyajana sutta]

"In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind:
misconduct in body, speech, & mind.

When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities:
thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness.

When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities:
thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised.
.
"When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma.
[pansadovaka sutta]

For different way in which defilements can arise/be removed:
Sabbasava sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Methods of removing defilements:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

alan
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Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby alan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:55 am

I've given suttas that answered the question. Are you all asleep? What else are you looking for?

rowyourboat
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:47 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

alan
Posts: 2812
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby alan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:07 am

You may be right about that.

phil
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby phil » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:08 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Oppose unwholesome states or see them with wisdom?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:15 am



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