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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:52 am 
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Ben Yuan wrote:
And the irony is that when you overtly treat them as just psychological, the fun of them being just psychological is dashed.
Interesting observation. Why exactly do you feel that this is true?

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:55 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Ben Yuan wrote:
And the irony is that when you overtly treat them as just psychological, the fun of them being just psychological is dashed.
Interesting observation. Why exactly do you feel that this is true?

It also dashes the fun to have to try to explain this. :P

Anutpattikadharmaksanti, patiently abiding the non-arising of all Dharmas. One is aware that it is all a game, all a dream, like a play and patiently accepts it.

To put it another way, if one thinks of a drama, say, Macbeth, and imagines what it would be like to REALLY be Macbeth, obviously it's a whole mass of dukkha. But if one is in one's seat in the audience and is watching it, one is aware that it is a play, and one isn't really going to have the same kind of fear and anguish which one would the whole blasted affair were real. This is essentially enlightenment. But one cannot transcend the play in that way in reality, one is still on the stage, but once you know it is a play, it is just fun. You act out the emotions, you say the lines, and you don't really suffer, you have a grand old time in fact.

Just like the Ratnagotravibhāga says, the Buddha isn't really just a guy who realised something and told people about it, he is an eternally fully aware 'nothing,' so the whole shebang of the Buddha's life was a play. A fun drama which he acted out, fully aware that he was doing so, and fully aware that none of it is really real.

But on the other hand, if know you're on the stage, you already are aware in your mind that it's a stage. There's no point pretending you're in the audience, play along. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 10:19 am 
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That didn't dash the fun for me :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 10:48 am 
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Ben Yuan wrote:
Anutpattikadharmaksanti, patiently abiding the non-arising of all Dharmas. One is aware that it is all a game, all a dream, like a play and patiently accepts it.
What you are describing is the real fun as opposed to the relative fun. You are describing the joy of equanimity.

I believe that realising it is all just a mind game makes it fun, relieves the tension, destroys suffering. Completely unshakeable joy!

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 10:57 am 
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Ben Yuan wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Ben Yuan wrote:
And the irony is that when you overtly treat them as just psychological, the fun of them being just psychological is dashed.
Interesting observation. Why exactly do you feel that this is true?

It also dashes the fun to have to try to explain this. :P

Anutpattikadharmaksanti, patiently abiding the non-arising of all Dharmas. One is aware that it is all a game, all a dream, like a play and patiently accepts it.

To put it another way, if one thinks of a drama, say, Macbeth, and imagines what it would be like to REALLY be Macbeth, obviously it's a whole mass of dukkha. But if one is in one's seat in the audience and is watching it, one is aware that it is a play, and one isn't really going to have the same kind of fear and anguish which one would the whole blasted affair were real. This is essentially enlightenment. But one cannot transcend the play in that way in reality, one is still on the stage, but once you know it is a play, it is just fun. You act out the emotions, you say the lines, and you don't really suffer, you have a grand old time in fact.

Just like the Ratnagotravibhāga says, the Buddha isn't really just a guy who realised something and told people about it, he is an eternally fully aware 'nothing,' so the whole shebang of the Buddha's life was a play. A fun drama which he acted out, fully aware that he was doing so, and fully aware that none of it is really real.

But on the other hand, if know you're on the stage, you already are aware in your mind that it's a stage. There's no point pretending you're in the audience, play along. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

This is pretty much the attitude to gods and reality that you find in Gaiman's (brilliant, IMO) novel American Gods.

:smile:
Kim


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 11:19 am 
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Ben Yuan wrote:
And the irony is that when you overtly treat them as just psychological, the fun of them being just psychological is dashed.


Life is more interesting with more possibilities. ;)


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
And the irony is that when you overtly treat them as just psychological, the fun of them being just psychological is dashed.


Life is more interesting with more possibilities. ;)
And cats...

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 4:17 pm 
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porpoise wrote:
LionelChen wrote:
"Oh, so are Vajrayana Buddhist deities (like an Yidam) essentially metaphors or analogies for aspects of the mind? In the same way that I could merely call my sense of taste "Zeus? In other words, are they simply generating models or fictional characters (in the same way say that Mickey Mouse is a fictional character) to describe some aspect of the mind?"


When I was involved in Tibetan Buddhism some people believed in these deities very literally while others took a more psychological approach. Perhaps it's about skillful means, what works best for each person?



Well, it sure seems to feel that way to me at times. I kind of feel like that German acolyte in the whole "Tara, does she or doesn't she" anecdote when she (or he) said:

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Sometimes you speak as if she was a real person, but sometimes you say she is the wisdom of Buddha Amoghasiddhi, and sometimes you say she is just a clever instrument.


...without that person's preoccupation about "existence."


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:51 pm 
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"To put it another way, if one thinks of a drama, say, Macbeth, and imagines what it would be like to REALLY be Macbeth, obviously it's a whole mass of dukkha. But if one is in one's seat in the audience and is watching it, one is aware that it is a play, and one isn't really going to have the same kind of fear and anguish which one would the whole blasted affair were real. This is essentially enlightenment. But one cannot transcend the play in that way in reality, one is still on the stage, but once you know it is a play, it is just fun. You act out the emotions, you say the lines, and you don't really suffer, you have a grand old time in fact"

Of course I agree with the above statement but it's not that either for where is the devotion? The tear filled gratitude, and the mystery of it all.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:50 pm 
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LionelChen wrote:
porpoise wrote:
LionelChen wrote:
"Oh, so are Vajrayana Buddhist deities (like an Yidam) essentially metaphors or analogies for aspects of the mind? In the same way that I could merely call my sense of taste "Zeus? In other words, are they simply generating models or fictional characters (in the same way say that Mickey Mouse is a fictional character) to describe some aspect of the mind?"


When I was involved in Tibetan Buddhism some people believed in these deities very literally while others took a more psychological approach. Perhaps it's about skillful means, what works best for each person?



Well, it sure seems to feel that way to me at times. I kind of feel like that German acolyte in the whole "Tara, does she or doesn't she" anecdote when she (or he) said:

Quote:
Sometimes you speak as if she was a real person, but sometimes you say she is the wisdom of Buddha Amoghasiddhi, and sometimes you say she is just a clever instrument.


...without that person's preoccupation about "existence."


Yes, interesting. I've noticed with many spiritual traditions there is an idea of connecting with something, which may be thought of as internal or external, and described in different ways, eg "God", "reality", "original face", "emptiness", etc. But I wonder if it's just different language pointing at the same experience?


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