Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:23 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 107 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:10 am 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am
Posts: 1140
Jikan wrote:
tobes wrote:

Wilber as a Buddhist philosopher, psychologist, yogi - I must admit, I find....well, laughable.

But perhaps he raises an interesting Hegelian challenge to all of us: can we consider ourselves as part of a greater historical unfolding?


On this point, I agree we must give Wilber the benefit of the doubt. This is a worthwhile thought experiment. It opens onto a second question: if we are on the edge of a greater historical unfolding, then who are we, the first ones to catch on to this historical tendency? Does this make "us" early adapters somehow special, or does it put us in a position of responsibility for the care of others? I think for Wilber it means an endless series of self-congratulatory interviews with the likes of Andrew Cohen, in which they high-five each other on constituting the vanguard of evolutionary consciousness. Rockstars, Rude Boys, "God is not a Gentleman," &c: this kind of thinking can go sideways, and may have already done so in this case.

That said, this notion of world-historical emergence and immanence of awakening is hardly foreign to the Buddhist tradition. Wonhyo had some interesting things to say about this, for instance; see the translation, Cultivating Original Enlightenment, trans. Buswell.

(I still think Dunayevskaya, Marcuse, even Zizek have more convincing readings of Hegel than Wilber has... his conflation of Nagarjuna and Schelling in Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality is something of a train wreck)


Ah, yes, I'm certainly not proposing that we buy into Wilber's Hegelianism - I admit to being too conceited to even bother engaging with his work. From the distance of my conceit, I see similar things as you - self-congratulations, entrepreneurial intentions, grandiose and inflated identity....

Actually I did read something of his quite recently - it was a short essay justifying a capitalist reform of Buddhism. In the spirit of Hegel, I'm happy to put myself on the exact opposite side of that dialectic.

:anjali:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:24 am 
Online

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Posts: 2193
lobster wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
What is needed is a synthesis of all three turnings of the wheel with modern psychology, psychotherapy and science to help with the particular style of confusion and mental suffering that can be found in our "civilised" countries as well as a troubled world.

The cultural baggage of past and superseded teachings, clung to with group attachments is no substitute for updated tooling.

Huh. I thought it was widely understood that your psychology was your samsara. If that is actually the case, then the point of dharma practice is to become liberated from the confines of your psychology, not synthesize with it.

I am fond of quoting ChNN saying, "A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits." Thinking Dharma is a form of psychology is exactly such an error.

_________________
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:26 am 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am
Posts: 1140
Here it is:

http://www.kenwilber.com/writings/read_pdf/41

I can't think of any argument or normative claim made about the Dharma that I've found more ridiculous and repugnant: that the Dharma ought to be capitalised, not out of necessity, but because it enriches the self-worth of the teachers and practitioners.....

Would be nice to see a Zizekian take down, you need a kind of perverse humour to even bother engaging with such utter cr*p.

:anjali:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Posts: 2295
http://tuttejiorg.wordpress.com/2014/01/31/tutte-wachtmeister-how-to-monetize-the-dharma/

Ken Dillinger, Transintegral theorist wrote:
No contemporary Master has done more than Tutteji Dai Osho to heal the painful antagonism between Dharma and dollars – or money and spirituality in general.

_________________
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:22 am
Posts: 55
dzogchungpa wrote:
Jetavan wrote:
....
Well..."guru" might be a bit strong...

From http://www.adidawilber.com/letter_to_adidam_community/:
Wilber wrote:
Do I believe that Master Adi Da is the greatest Realizer of all time? I certainly believe He is the greatest living Realizer. Anything beyond that is sheer speculation. How could any of us judge? Who among us has met Gautama Buddha? Who has experienced Satsang with Sri Ramana Maharshi? Who has lived in the company of Padmasambhava? I have sat in satsang with Master Adi Da, and with numerous other great Adepts, and my own opinion is that Master Adi Da is the living Sat-Guru. Beyond that, how could I say with any personal authority?
...
But for those students who are ready, and who fully understand the gravity of the decision, I speak of Master Da as the Sat-Guru, and recommend that they pursue that Way to the extent that they are capable: student, disciple, devotee. And I have always said — and still say publicly — that not a single person can afford not to be at least a student of the Written Teaching.

I affirm my own love and devotion to the living Sat-Guru, and I hope my work will continue to bring students to the Way of the Heart.

It's probably significant that Wilber uses rather impersonal phrases like "the Sat-Guru" or "the living Sat-Guru" or "the Master", rather than the more personal and intimate "my Guru" or "my Master". I don't disagree that Adi Da could be loosely described as Wilber's "guru", in the sense of Wilber viewing Adi Da as one of his "teachers"; but a distinction should be made between (1) someone who has taken formal vows as a devotee of Adi Da, living the disciplines and the publicly visible life in Community that a devotee lives; and (2) someone who may have been deeply influenced by Adi Da intellectually and spiritually, but who has not submitted to the Way of Life or to the Community that Adi Da formally offers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:57 am 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am
Posts: 1140
dzogchungpa wrote:
http://tuttejiorg.wordpress.com/2014/01/31/tutte-wachtmeister-how-to-monetize-the-dharma/

Ken Dillinger, Transintegral theorist wrote:
No contemporary Master has done more than Tutteji Dai Osho to heal the painful antagonism between Dharma and dollars – or money and spirituality in general.


Wow. This stuff is just so deeply pernicious.

:anjali:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Posts: 1934
Location: Sydney AU
smcj wrote:
Tim Leary also claimed some sort of grandiose historical moment/change in awareness. He had a far more compelling case to put forward than KW. If they ever defrost his head we can ask him more about it.


Hang on, Leary had his ashes put on a rocket and fired into space. Maybe you're thinking of Walt Disney...

I have some 'early Wilber' books that I quite like - Quantum Question (not that there's much of his actual writing in it), Sociable God, and his first one, forgotten the title now//edit 'Spectrum of Consciousness'//. Didn't mind them at the time but I feel as though he lost the plot in some way. I think his project would have worked out better if he could have found some toehold in academia - maybe even one of the fringe institutions like CIIS. As it is, nobody takes him the least seriously in Buddhist studies or comparative religion - you can't cite him or mention his name without being categorized 'new age'.

Although I have been to two conferences on 'Science and Non-Duality' in California, which you would think would be very much the kind of event where Wilber would be on the agenda, but I can't recall anyone mentioning him at either of them.

_________________
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:48 am 
Online

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Posts: 2193
Quote:
Hang on, Leary had his ashes put on a rocket and fired into space. Maybe you're thinking of Walt Disney...

The Wiki article on him isn't very well written and has some internal inconsistencies, including different scenarios for his ashes. From Wiki:

He was connected with two cryonic organizations, first Alcor and then CryoCare, one of which delivered a cryonic tank to his house in the months before his death, but subsequently requested that his body be cremated, which it was, and distributed among his friends and family.
(edit for brevity)
The film Timothy Leary's Dead (1996) contains a simulated sequence in which he allows his bodily functions to be suspended for the purposes of cryonic preservation. His head is removed, and placed on ice. The film ends with a sequence showing the creation of the artificial head used in the film.


I guess I saw the film, which didn't seem to be a simulation to me at the time. Oh well, like it is important.

_________________
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm
Posts: 501
smcj wrote:
lobster wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
What is needed is a synthesis of all three turnings of the wheel with modern psychology, psychotherapy and science to help with the particular style of confusion and mental suffering that can be found in our "civilised" countries as well as a troubled world.

The cultural baggage of past and superseded teachings, clung to with group attachments is no substitute for updated tooling.

Huh. I thought it was widely understood that your psychology was your samsara. If that is actually the case, then the point of dharma practice is to become liberated from the confines of your psychology, not synthesize with it.

I am fond of quoting ChNN saying, "A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits." Thinking Dharma is a form of psychology is exactly such an error.


Have to agree: "Thinking Dharma is a form of psychology is exactly such an error."

I didn't start out with this view, I am ABD in Psychology. Even now, it's work to see how it has seeped deeply into my thinking. Ofc, it has it's place in the world of those who believe in subject/object relations, but it is rare that it can rise above that. Psychology as we know it today is a primitive science.... don't know what it would look like in 500 years. I loved my psychologized ego, but it was not real. Then, there is the issue of what kind of psychology we are talking about, there are many from soul level healing to pharmaceutical solutions... still rooted for the most part in subject and object. ChNN says "he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits"... yes, it's true. Thus, it can not rise above the issue into the eagle's nest where transformation happens. Another topic and mystery...

All I can say is that I've relaxed my view for myself and others. The heart opens. Not knowing, I have long wondered about how Buddhism and other traditions evolve... I'm glad to hear that expressed here. It is alive. Life changes in the most mysterious ways when the interference stops.... Buddhism, for me, can support the process in the most organic, natural way from a practice perspective ... and we are surprised, even shocked at times. Still, science can sometimes come to our aid... I've recently become interested in how neurobiology is looking at neuroplasticity which supports the possibility of change in long held mental patterning by simply changing one's thought over time. This is not what might be called the power of positive thinking, it sounds like something more inclusive. Makes me wonder if so much talk about suffering is a program that could be altered in the nervous system and the heart center.

Just to go farther out, perhaps the world is in perfect order with a play of forces ever present... it's only for us to retool the view.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:43 am 
Online

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Posts: 2193
I think I should add that I have friends and family that are diagnosed with psychosis and schizophrenia. Dharma doesn't work for them, antipsychotic medicines do. So I'm not dismissing psychiatry's contribution, just suggesting each has a jurisdiction and that those jurisdictions initially overlap.

And, in my own case, I was not able to proceed straight to Dharma without first addressing a variety of personal issues. That was a clear and conscious decision on my part, regrettable though it may be in retrospect. So it is hypocritical for me to criticize, dismiss or diminish the normal development that people need to go through, sometimes being facilitated with the help of psychotherapy. But the two disciplines aren't the same.

_________________
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:43 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
oushi wrote:
Let's face it, 4th turning is needed. All the presently available teachings and methods are not sufficiently effective. A big part of understanding the functioning of the mind is missing. Medicine is rapidly unveiling the secrets of the brain, and the one who will combine those discoveries with Dharma, will turn the wheel. I don't know about the work of Ken Wilber, but I know that Shinzen Young is working on the subject (the only person with Buddhist background that says he is awakened).
Let's face it, we need to fully realise the first, second and third turnings before we can even begin to discuss a fourth turning. We are like kindergarten students thinking we can write a PhD.

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm
Posts: 542
Me thinks what we need is to forget about turnings.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:08 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
I rest my case!

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm
Posts: 542
I rest in buddha :bow:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:19 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
Yes, well, that's all nice and true but without the Dharma (the turnings) and the sangha (especially the teacher) it's really not enough. Especially if you consider that the Buddha is dead. ;)

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm
Posts: 542
I'll leave that for people for whom resting in Buddha is not enough.
That Buddha which I rest in cannot die.

:anjali:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Posts: 2327
Location: the Netherlands and India
What does resting in the Buddha actually mean to you?

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:23 am
Posts: 96
Quote:
Ken Wilber - Towards a fourth turning of the wheel of Dharma

Filed Under: PR stunt from somebody unworthy of getting attention by credible means.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm
Posts: 952
smcj wrote:
And, in my own case, I was not able to proceed straight to Dharma without first addressing a variety of personal issues. That was a clear and conscious decision on my part, regrettable though it may be in retrospect. So it is hypocritical for me to criticize, dismiss or diminish the normal development that people need to go through, sometimes being facilitated with the help of psychotherapy. But the two disciplines aren't the same.


Indeed.

They are part of a continuum. If we are too unwell to practice, then we get well if possible. Too many experts, without a diagnosis of the condition and nature of dukkha. Ken Willburn has a function for beginners, as a foil and a warning of premature expounding . . .

Not yet enlightened but this is the way to go . . . sayeth the integral one . . . Does not quite ring true - do it?

. . . and now back to the popcorn :popcorn:

_________________
YinYana Buddhism


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am
Posts: 1596
Sherab Dorje wrote:
oushi wrote:
Let's face it, 4th turning is needed. All the presently available teachings and methods are not sufficiently effective. A big part of understanding the functioning of the mind is missing. Medicine is rapidly unveiling the secrets of the brain, and the one who will combine those discoveries with Dharma, will turn the wheel. I don't know about the work of Ken Wilber, but I know that Shinzen Young is working on the subject (the only person with Buddhist background that says he is awakened).
Let's face it, we need to fully realise the first, second and third turnings before we can even begin to discuss a fourth turning. We are like kindergarten students thinking we can write a PhD.

It may be the case, but it doesn't have to. If those turnings are like pathways leading to the other side of the mountains, then you don't have to know them all, to get into a helicopter and fly to the other side. Moreover, you don't have to know anything and have any experience in mountain walking, to do that.
For long centuries everything that was available was already in our possesion. It was an inner work of the mind that had to be done, and there was nothing else. Now, thanks to science, we have developed many new tools that can brings light to aspects impossible to investigate from "inside". We simply know more about the way mind functions, and this knowledge needs to be utilized in creating a new method that will be more effective in leading people to liberation. I'm not talking about psychology here, but discoveries of neuroscience, like split-brain patients behavior, or mirror-neurons role. 100 years ago nobody knew that every brain hemisphere has it's own awareness and a different world view. Nobody knew that the right hemisphere holds morality, and the left one is a sociopath. Nobody knew that there are mirror-neurons that can make you feel empathy etc.
There is a great potential for improvement. PhD is what ends this process, it starts in kindergarten as creative endeavour.

_________________
Say what you think about me here.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 107 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group