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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:32 am 
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Atanavat wrote:
I am fully aware, that my comment was not constructive, maybe harsh (yes) and unkind (yes) but to me it seems that shel is a rather lonely voice of reason in this thread, and fighting an uphill batttle - that surprises me quite a bit, and also saddens me a little...dukkha, samsara I know. I had expected more reason and sense, but "you cant always get what you want" (unless you reach Pari-Nirvana)


This whole thread saddens me and worse.
It is unholy, and I am afraid to even participate in it because it slanders Buddhism.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:10 am 
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shel wrote:
smcj wrote:
The end of your sentence, "…and nothing besides" led me to believe you meant that simply adopting a paradigm is "all that we require from religion".

I thought I wrote that meaning was all we require from religion. Meaning is essential. Truth, for instance, is not essential.

That is not what I've been taught in private conversation with my teachers. But YMMV.

Quote:
Quote:
However fulfilling life's meaning requires a "praxis" as you say.

I said that?

Lol! When you said,
Quote:
That expression is normally used to essentially distinguish logos/praxis
, I thought you were talking about the expression you had used.

Quote:
I don't see how the expression you used relates to what I wrote. Can you explain?

OK, I'll try it again:
Munu=logos=meaning
Food=praxis=realization

Quote:
I've been essentially arguing for the last 44 pages that the Dharma is meaningful, in opposition to the claim that it's meaningless,

Well if that is really the case, then we are in agreement. But for some reason your posts don't read like that to me. But then again, I obviously don't get what you are trying to say to begin with.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:44 pm 
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I have to read YMMV as "Your Meaninglessness May Vary" - it is just too perfect :rolling:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:51 pm 
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Atanavat wrote:
I have to read YMMV as "Your Meaninglessness May Vary" - it is just too perfect :rolling:

:applause: Well done.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:32 pm 
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smcj wrote:
Munu=logos=meaning
Food=praxis=realization

Rather,

logos = meaning

praxis = meaning

logo + praxis = meaning

Realization is superfluous.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:41 pm 
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Wot? Still yammering on about meaning? :smile:

Meaning is great, for us, honestly--compassion for others, honesty about our own situation, and relinquishment of anger and negativity are the true meaning of the Dharma. We should all hug. :consoling:

I believe the True Essence of Buddha Dharma cannot be contained by conceptual mind. It's always a glancing approach, a shot off the starboard bow, as it were, when we talk. Therefore, on reflection, since we're talking, I think I will concede my position and bow out of the conversation. But I think that when one considers the limitations of conceptual mind, one can do nothing but butt up against the limitations of meaning. And if one truly understands, even conceptually, without a direct experience, what Sunyata, the Perfection of Wisdom, means, we can see that meaning, and meaningless, are both two poles, arising and dispersing in dependence. This sort of "meaninglessness" is not what Astus is talking about, but it's a subtle point I believe he's trying to make, and one that tests the limits of our rationality.

Nevertheless, here we are, and on our level, the danger of (mis)understanding meaninglessness as a sort of "nihilist" summation, or as a motto for living one's conventional life, is truly great. This thread surely reflects that. Better to be attached to the system of meaning, engage oneself in study and practice, listening, reflecting, and meditating, and above all, not in arguing and bickering about concepts. Better to sit quietly, relax in the vast expanse....

Happy Losar to all, Happy March 2nd to everyone......let's pray for our exhaustion of conceptual proliferation...at least for a short while! :namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:04 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
... if one truly understands, even conceptually, without a direct experience, what Sunyata, the Perfection of Wisdom, means, we can see that meaning, and meaningless, are both two poles, arising and dispersing in dependence.

Polarities and relationships can be rather easy to see, and indeed to contrive. I would think that experiencing emptiness or sunyata might have the effect of reducing such polar contrivances.

Quote:
This sort of "meaninglessness" is not what Astus is talking about, but it's a subtle point I believe he's trying to make, and one that tests the limits of our rationality.

In short, he attempts to apply meaninglessness to emptiness, while simultainiously quoting doctrine that describes this as a fools errand.

Quote:
Nevertheless, here we are, and on our level, the danger of (mis)understanding meaninglessness as a sort of "nihilist" summation, or as a motto for living one's conventional life, is truly great.

Meaninglessness is nihilist in nature. Emptiness is neither meaningful or meaningless, or it's both, if you prefer. It doesn't really matter what concepts you apply to it, they will all be wrong, or right, right?

Quote:
This thread surely reflects that.

This thread reflects misunderstanding meaninglessness as a sort of nihilist summation? On that we can completely agree. Meaninglessness is basically the nihilist summation.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:41 pm 
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shel wrote:
smcj wrote:
Munu=logos=meaning
Food=praxis=realization

Rather,

logos = meaning

praxis = meaning

logo + praxis = meaning

Realization is superfluous.

Superfluous?

YMMV :smile:

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A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:54 pm 
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smcj wrote:
shel wrote:
smcj wrote:
Munu=logos=meaning
Food=praxis=realization

Rather,

logos = meaning

praxis = meaning

logo + praxis = meaning

Realization is superfluous.

Superfluous?

YMMV :smile:

Ask yourself. Assuming you're not realized, do still find Buddhadharma meaningful?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:34 pm 
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shel wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Realization is superfluous.

Superfluous?

YMMV :smile:

Ask yourself. Assuming you're not realized, do still find Buddhadharma meaningful?

Yes, absolutely.

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A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:13 am 
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:shrug: Perhaps the meaningless paradigm can be simply seen as an antidote in the end... useful as skillful means to a point ... yet intellect used as antidote has potential to block prajna, natural mind with it's many flavored distractions.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:23 am 
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A nihilist "paradigm." :tongue:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:20 pm 
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I was not talking about a nihilist paradigm at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:31 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:25 pm 
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:guns: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

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The Dharma of The Buddha is illuminating beyond compare, cold, diamond-hard and so very austere. It will be touched by nothing, but the strictest of reasoning and the deepest of contemplation.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:03 pm 
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Do you really think that this movie scene is appropriate in Open Dharma forum? :|

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:36 pm 
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It could possibly be if interpreted as an invitation to lighten up. :heart:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:18 am 
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In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat, but in the evolution of real knowledge it marks the first step in progress toward a victory.
Alfred North Whitehead

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:24 am 
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Religion is the last refuge of human savagery.

– Alfred North Whitehead


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:51 am 
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Lindama wrote:
I was not talking about a nihilist paradigm at all.


Alright then, what sort of group universally recognizes meaninglessness as a proven model for... something?


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