Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

[gregkavarnos]

So are you saying that the shared (let's say ritual) similarities between Buddhist Tantra and Hindu Tantra (for example) are not an example of a shared methodology: a "Tantrism", or "Tantric" approach, if you wish? (let me add you kicked off the use of the word in this thread, I made no such mention previously).
PS I am not being argumentative, I am trying to understand.

[Malcolm]

So are you saying that the shared (let's say ritual) similarities between Buddhist Tantra and Hindu Tantra (for example) are not an example of a shared methodology: a "Tantrism", or "Tantric" approach, if you wish? (let me add you kicked off the use of the word in this thread, I made no such mention previously).
PS I am not being argumentative, I am trying to understand.

They share methodologies and similarities because they both come from Indian culture, but not because there was something special about "tantra" itself.

[gregkavarnos]

"Special"???

And if it was merely an Indian culutral accretion then why did not all Indian religious or spiritual movements utilise it? Actually, I should be more specific (since all of them did use it): Why was it not the way all Indian religious or spiritual movements practiced per se (because it seems to have been a "fringe" thing).

[Malcolm]

Why was it not the way all Indian religious or spiritual movements practiced per se (because it seems to have been a "fringe" thing).

Subsequent to British Colonialism, forms of religion deemed offensive to the British were largely purged by Western Educated Hindus. Hence what we now think of a "fringe" thing was the dominant religious form among Hindus until the 17th century i.e. the so called Shakti traditions.

[gregkavarnos]

Got it in regards to the "fringe" thing! Thank you!

Still some nagging doubt about the -ism bit. What is it about the practice of tantra (or tantric practice) in Hindu and Buddhist religion that does not make it an -ism?

[Malcolm]

Got it in regards to the "fringe" thing! Thank you!

Still some nagging doubt about the -ism bit. What is it about the practice of tantra (or tantric practice) in Hindu and Buddhist religion that does not make it an -ism?

Tantrism is more or less a Western academic fabrication.

[Jikan]

Why was it not the way all Indian religious or spiritual movements practiced per se (because it seems to have been a "fringe" thing).

Subsequent to British Colonialism, forms of religion deemed offensive to the British were largely purged by Western Educated Hindus. Hence what we now think of a "fringe" thing was the dominant religious form among Hindus until the 17th century i.e. the so called Shakti traditions.

this may be the exception that proves the rule: think about Aurobindo Ghose's integration of shaktism & advaita along lines suggested by English idealism. Aurobindo was committed to Shaktism; his very long epic poem Savitri (much of which is stunningly beautiful) describes this in detail.

[pueraeternus]

There are no real objective accounts, just sectarian annals on both sides.

Noted. Ah well, guess no religious movements are free from self-glorifying myth-making.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

this may be the exception that proves the rule: think about Aurobindo Ghose's integration of shaktism & advaita along lines suggested by English idealism. Aurobindo was committed to Shaktism; his very long epic poem Savitri (much of which is stunningly beautiful) describes this in detail.

Aurobindo's one of the last non-Buddhist teachers I can't part with. I have an addiction. Savitri is beautiful.

[deepbluehum]

Shakti is a flame. Buddha blows it out.

[underthetree]

Shakti is a flame. Buddha blows it out.

No. That's not true at all.

[deepbluehum]

Shakti is a flame. Buddha blows it out.

No. That's not true at all.

Have you ever received shaktipat?

[deepbluehum]

[deepbluehum]

[Red Faced Buddha]

Funny how in Buddhist tantras you have Buddhist deities stepping on the faces of Hindu deities, but not the other way around.

That doesn't make much sense considering several Buddhist deities are based on Hindu gods.Buddhist gods usually trample on beings who are personifications of ignorance,lust,etc.
Anyway,is Vajrayana and Buddhist tantra the same thing?

[Raksha]

That is a pretty unfounded statement. Did you forget Shankaracarya? Navy Nyaya?

Nope, because vishishtadvaitavedanta is a straight rip-off of Buddhism...as for my rather generalised statement, perhaps it's better to say, 'True sons of Arya-Nagarjuna are invincible in debate'.
R.

[Raksha]

Of course none of this would have happened if the differences between their respective religions was 'non-existent'.

Straw man. I never said that there are no differences, I said that there are no boundaries, or to be exact:

If there are boundaries, they must be pretty bloody porous (to the point of being non-existent).........This does not deny the existence of seperate religions.

Such casuistry! You have missed your vocation as a lawyer, Greg

[deepbluehum]

That doesn't make much sense considering several Buddhist deities are based on Hindu gods.Buddhist gods usually trample on beings who are personifications of ignorance,lust,etc.

In the Buddhist pantheon, the notion is the deities are "enlightened forms," of Hindu deities. For example, Avalokiteshvara is thought to be the enlightened form of Mahadeva, aka, Shiva. Lokeshvara is an epithet for Shiva.

Anyway,is Vajrayana and Buddhist tantra the same thing?

Yeah, basically. There are ways of using the word tantra to include Dzogchen tantras which are, by some accounts, beyond Vajrayana. But for the most part Vajrayana is the proper term of "Buddhist tantra," which is just how us Westerners talk about the subject.

[gregkavarnos]

Such casuistry! You have missed your vocation as a lawyer, Greg

Casuistry... that's a good one! Thank you for teaching me a new word Raksha! I'll be sure to add it to my arsenal!

Actually my parents really wanted me to be a lawyer (or a doctor) but I chose psychology instead! What a fool! Here in Greece the only class of professionals that make real money are lawyers.

[deepbluehum]

Basically, let the transparent energy flow.