Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Matylda » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:10 pm

Astus wrote:
Matylda wrote:I always thought that it was Kanchi Sosan, the 3rd patriarch of the lineage who wrote it.. it would mean 2 generations before oxhead appeared. Am I wrong?


It is as you say. Farong's work is the Xinming (心銘), Mind Inscription. Also this: The "Hsin-Ming" Attributed to Niu-T'ou Fa-Jung by Henrik H. Sorensen.

The mentioned Wikipedia article questions the authority of the Xinxinming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming#Authorship


Do you know Chinese or Japanese version of the oxhead's of inscription? The English translation is nice but I prefer original one. As for Shinjinmei, I guess from the wiki that it is some modern claim of Western historians... In Japan it would be rather an unkonw idea.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Anders » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:15 pm

jikai wrote:@ Anders,
That may well be so, and I trust your superior knowledge of Zen over my own side readings. Nevertheless, if we don't use the five houses categorization to differentiate between orthodox and otherwise Zen transmissions then what can we use in our determinations?
Gassho,
Jikai.


Actually, the five houses are frequently cited by famous Zen masters as a plain bad idea, invented by students obsessed with categories and sectarianism, and that such divisions should not be taken seriously.

Hakuin for example, lamented that Rinzai students would not study the five ranks simply because it was a soto invention, whilst Dogen lamented that students even distinguished a Zen school rather than simply Buddhism, let alone five houses of it.

But basically, determining orthodoxy is not an easy affair. Ideally, you evaluate the teachings against the sutras on a case by case basis and then look to see what his peers have to say about a given teacher. In the case of classical masters, we do have some centuries of peer review to fall back on.

Simply looking at lineage charts is no guarantee of orthodoxy and we are often warned against such thinking by the classical masters. And besides that, modern historical research suggest that a fair bit of the lineage charts were doctored centuries after the fact. Name checking is not a terribly relevant criteria. Hanshan Deqing for example, did not cite any transmission and yet he was perhaps one of the most influential Chan masters from the ming dynasty to today. And Dogen's own teacher never disclosed who he received transmission from when he was still alive. These were only revealed after his death.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Astus » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:44 pm

Matylda wrote:Do you know Chinese or Japanese version of the oxhead's of inscription? The English translation is nice but I prefer original one.


The first link includes the original. Otherwise: 牛頭山初祖法融禪師心銘
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Qianxi » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:53 pm

Matylda wrote:
Astus wrote:
Matylda wrote:I always thought that it was Kanchi Sosan, the 3rd patriarch of the lineage who wrote it.. it would mean 2 generations before oxhead appeared. Am I wrong?


It is as you say. Farong's work is the Xinming (心銘), Mind Inscription. Also this: The "Hsin-Ming" Attributed to Niu-T'ou Fa-Jung by Henrik H. Sorensen.

The mentioned Wikipedia article questions the authority of the Xinxinming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming#Authorship


Do you know Chinese or Japanese version of the oxhead's of inscription? The English translation is nice but I prefer original one. As for Shinjinmei, I guess from the wiki that it is some modern claim of Western historians... In Japan it would be rather an unkonw idea.


If [Xinxinming/信心銘/Faith in Mind inscription/Shinjinmei] is just a shorter version of Farong's [Xinming/心銘/Mind inscription] then you could still consider Xinxinming a work of Oxhead, right? Unless it has been edited in a way unrepresentative of the longer text.

Anyway, the two poems are next to each other at the start of scroll 30 of the Jingde Chuan Deng Lu http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T51n2076_030
The one attributed to the 3rd patriarch, the Shinjinmei, the one which is often quoted by later Chan masters, the one which may or may not be a late condensed version of the following poem, is titled 三祖僧璨大師信心銘
The one attributed to Farong the founder of Ox Head school, the one which may actually be the earlier of the two poems, is titled 牛頭山初祖法融禪師心銘

Actually, the similarity between the two texts is not as close as the English and Chinese Wikipedia articles (and the scholars they quote, like Yinshun) imply. Hm! I don't know what to make of it.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Qianxi » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:26 pm

Looking behind the Wikipedia footnotes, one piece of evidence (Mentioned by Yinshun in Chinese here http://www.yinshun.org.tw/books/32/yinshun32-06.html ) connecting Xin Ming心銘 and Xinxin Ming信心銘 is that [Yongming Yanshou/Yōmyō Enju] in his famous work 《宗鏡錄》Zongjing Lu http://terebess.hu/zen/zongjing-lu.html from 961 (40 years before Jingde Chuandeng Lu was published), quotes from both Xin Ming and Xinxin Ming, and calls them both by the same name: Xinxinming信心銘. I think he also refers to quotes from both as "Farong's Xinxinming", but I'd have to look up to be sure.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Jikan » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:31 pm

Matylda wrote:But frankly in Japanese tendai zazen/shikan practice is not very popular... mostly priests are concerned with goma and some esoteric/tantric rituals and meditations. So I wonder if there are any good teachers of 'zen' within tendai camp.


Yes, this is certainly the case. Detailed instruction on Shi Kan style zazen are available from Tendai teachers, masters who know what they are talking about, but you do have to ask for it and show you are serious about learning.

I should add that some context for starting this discussion--Jikai is correct to greet it with a measure of skepticism. that said, over the years, some of us (myself included) have been criticized by some leaders among American Zen schools for participating in discussions on Zen practice, history, and so on. Why? because as "Tendai people" we're not "Zen people." I would like to plant a seed of doubt regarding the distinction between "Zen" and "Tendai" people. Maybe I will apply to join the American Zen Teachers Association (there is one!), and initiate a Tendai People Working Group.

http://www.americanzenteachers.org/
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Jikan » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:38 pm

Meido wrote:
So I do sometimes think it would be nice if we could just say, "Well, Zen is a Tendai school". :smile:

~ Meido


:thumbsup:

I had an interesting conversation on this very point with Monshin sensei over the weekend. I proposed to him that, from what I had seen, the formula for Rinzai Zen as Eisai taught it is as follows: Tendai plus koans minus mikkyo. He said that was close, but it would be more accurate to say: Tendai plus koans (some history here on koan practice after Eisai but prior to the introduction of the Blue Cliff Record), minus some of the mikkyo (the rohatsu service is, of course, an esoteric one). As overgeneralizations go, there may be some merit to it.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Anders » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:47 pm

Jikan wrote:I should add that some context for starting this discussion--Jikai is correct to greet it with a measure of skepticism. that said, over the years, some of us (myself included) have been criticized by some leaders among American Zen schools for participating in discussions on Zen practice, history, and so on. Why? because as "Tendai people" we're not "Zen people."


No matter how Zen you are, I find such an attitude deplorably insular.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Meido » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:27 pm

Jikan wrote:Maybe I will apply to join the American Zen Teachers Association (there is one!), and initiate a Tendai People Working Group.


:twothumbsup:

Go for it!

Interesting comments RE Eisai. His lineage unfortunately didn't survive and the Otokan line eventually established its dominance, but Eisai is still universally respected for his Zen role even as it's known that he continued mikkyo practice at Kennin-ji. Along with entwined historical roots, the emphasis on creative use of hoben in both traditions is really a nice meeting ground ultimately. I'm obviously with Anders RE insular attitudes (and thanks, by the way, for tolerating Zen folks posting in the Tendai forum).

Matylda wrote:There is no 'kanjo' in rinzai??? I wonder.. in soto there is kanjo during jukai, which is very important part and has many explanations.


Yes, there is shassui during jukai as you mention. My point was that there is not a strict requirement for abhisheka before learning the mentioned practices. Though my personal opinion is that in Rinzai practice the encounter during shoken might be viewed as closer to empowerment/abhisheka than what happens during jukai...

~ Meido
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Matylda » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:52 pm

Meido wrote:Yes, there is shassui during jukai as you mention. My point was that there is not a strict requirement for abhisheka before learning the mentioned practices. Though my personal opinion is that in Rinzai practice the encounter during shoken might be viewed as closer to empowerment/abhisheka than what happens during jukai...

~ Meido


Thank you. I do not know how it is viewed in rinzai, though I am sorrounded by rinzai teachers.. it was just not picked up by in any conversation. But I wondered about shasui in rinzai actually.
In soto it is connected to trikaya basically of Vairochana, and there are many meanings to it, so I have to ask personally somebody if I get chance.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Matylda » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:58 pm

Jikan wrote:Jikai is correct to greet it with a measure of skepticism. that said, over the years, some of us (myself included) have been criticized by some leaders among American Zen schools for participating in discussions on Zen practice, history, and so on. Why? because as "Tendai people" we're not "Zen people."


Wow, they claim sounds pretty sectarian... I hope you they could cooperate more harmoniously all those 'zen' people :)
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Meido » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:58 pm

Matylda wrote:But I wondered about shasui in rinzai actually. In soto it is connected to trikaya basically of Vairochana, and there are many meanings to it, so I have to ask personally somebody if I get chance.


Sorry, Matylda, I didn't say it very clearly: I meant that I was aware of the shassui in Soto jukai as you mentioned.

As for Rinzai practice, I know that in some jukai ceremonies the forehead can be wetted (and it is briefly mentioned in the book Japanese Rinzai Zen Buddhism: Myoshinji, a living religion) but I've also observed many Rinzai jukai ceremonies where there was nothing like that. Then as you know, things sometimes vary from teacher to teacher/lineage to lineage, and there also might be differences between smaller ceremonies and the ones held at a Daihonzan with many people.

I can say that the explanation regarding trikaya is not something I've heard in connection to Rinzai jukai. So maybe that is more a Soto thing. And again, I think what happens in the sanzen room is (practically speaking) the empowerment in Rinzai practice, since there is the possibility to experience awakening through extraordinary means (according to the power of the teacher and the ripeness of the student)...and also shoken is the entrance into being able to undertake koan kufu and other practices closely with a teacher.

So it would be interesting to have information from one of the many Rinzai teachers you know (a nice circumstance!). If you learn anything interesting, I'd appreciate if you'd share it even by PM.

Sorry for off-topic tangent here.

~ Meido
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby jikai » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:59 pm

@Meido, I'm sorry if i didn't necessarily make my original posts clear, and my apologies regarding my lack of Zen knowledge. I am glad you enjoy the MakaShikan, and the ShouShikan :applause:

@Anders & Astus, I understand generally how one establishes orthodoxy in Buddhist practice- and I agree, one checks the Masters against the Sutra. What I mean't more specifically is how that might be done in relation to Chan/Zen. That is, many of the great Zen masters are quite 'unorthodox' in light of the sutra and commentary material...aren't they? (forgive me if I am mistaken, as i mentioned, Zen is not my specialty). At least as I understand it, many Chan masters really are in a seperate category of their own. Can they be evaluated in the normal way?

@Astus, You asked about how Ox-Head is represented and practiced today in Tendai: Simply put, it isn't. As a Tendai Priest I have visited Hieizan a number of times, and spoken with many high ranking Tendai Monks, some specifically on this matter. When asked where Ox-Head fits into our practice, they largely remark that it doesn't fit into standard Tendai practice at all. They add that we have inherited our own meditative traditions from Tiantai proper, and so, it is not highly valued within the establishment. This is why in my one of my early posts, I made a joke about the 'wisdom' of Dogen and Eisai going to China in search of Chan if Tendai was a Zen school- it was supposed to make it clear that Tendai cannot sensibly be classed as a Zen school- the reverse though, may be true in both the Chinese originals, and the Japanese developments. I should make clear here, that my joke was intended as a 'device' and that I personally have a great respect for the Chan/Zen systems- just the other day I was reading the Shobogenzo! :reading: Like any of the transmissions within Tendai, I have been told that some very few monks on Hieizan preserve certain parts of the Ox-Head transmission- but as I say, it is not part of the practice or training, as far as I know, for the vast majority of Tendai Monks and Priests (It is certainly not part of the pre-requisite training/study required to finish Gyoin.

@Jikan, While I agree that the attitude among some Zen practitioners that would 'exclude' us from talking about Zen matters is ridiculous, I don't think it is at all helpful to class Tendai as a Zen school. As Astus suggested in the beginning of the thread, It might make more sense to look at it from the reverse end. As you know, Many Tiantai/ and Tendai patriarchs specifically criticised Chan/Zen concepts as being one-sided. Our doctrines and polemics are quite different, and our traditions are unquestionably distinct (If these facts were not so, Dogen, Eisai, and Dainichi would not have left the Tendai establishment {I know that technically Eisai remained Tendai}). I just think that drawing too strong a connection between Tendai and Zen is really not accurate, and can only lead to a 'muddying of the waters'. To the majority of us here on Dharma Wheel, sure, we have enough knowledge to evaluate the claim properly. However, the average temple-goer, and those that drop by here, may not be so scrupulous. Tendai is new to the West, and most know little about it, if any. Surely this type of connection only further obscures the matter? There are so many misconceptions about Tendai (I've had people tell me that they are worried about practicing in Tendai because its ascetic image appears to cater to the 'bushido types'. We know that Tendai is much broader and deeper than that. The last thing I want, is people coming with more misconceptions- and if someone comes with the understanding that Tendai is a Zen school, I think that that could hugely distort the way they come to, and evaluate Tendai practice. If we tried evaluating Tendai practice from the perspective of what makes a practice 'Zen', I think we would leave unsatisfied.

Gassho,
Jikai.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Jikan » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:06 pm

Matylda wrote:
Jikan wrote:Jikai is correct to greet it with a measure of skepticism. that said, over the years, some of us (myself included) have been criticized by some leaders among American Zen schools for participating in discussions on Zen practice, history, and so on. Why? because as "Tendai people" we're not "Zen people."


Wow, they claim sounds pretty sectarian... I hope you they could cooperate more harmoniously all those 'zen' people :)


Indeed! Here's the strangest thing about it: the people who were criticizing us felt very strongly that their way of practice was Zen with a capital Z, if you will. As it happens, their teachers were identified with approaches that are rather marginal or innovative in Japan and traditionally (I'm thinking of Sanbo Kyodan, for one, or Nishijima and some of his English-speaking disciples). This had me wondering which one of us was more marginal to the conversation of Zen/Ch'an broadly defined. I don't know the answer to that question because I am in no position to answer it, I don't know enough to answer it adequately. I have no doubt of their sincerity, and I don't mean to criticize them any further.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Jikan » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:27 pm

jikai wrote:@Jikan, While I agree that the attitude among some Zen practitioners that would 'exclude' us from talking about Zen matters is ridiculous, I don't think it is at all helpful to class Tendai as a Zen school. As Astus suggested in the beginning of the thread, It might make more sense to look at it from the reverse end. As you know, Many Tiantai/ and Tendai patriarchs specifically criticised Chan/Zen concepts as being one-sided. Our doctrines and polemics are quite different, and our traditions are unquestionably distinct (If these facts were not so, Dogen, Eisai, and Dainichi would not have left the Tendai establishment {I know that technically Eisai remained Tendai}). I just think that drawing too strong a connection between Tendai and Zen is really not accurate, and can only lead to a 'muddying of the waters'. To the majority of us here on Dharma Wheel, sure, we have enough knowledge to evaluate the claim properly. However, the average temple-goer, and those that drop by here, may not be so scrupulous. Tendai is new to the West, and most know little about it, if any. Surely this type of connection only further obscures the matter? There are so many misconceptions about Tendai (I've had people tell me that they are worried about practicing in Tendai because its ascetic image appears to cater to the 'bushido types'. We know that Tendai is much broader and deeper than that. The last thing I want, is people coming with more misconceptions- and if someone comes with the understanding that Tendai is a Zen school, I think that that could hugely distort the way they come to, and evaluate Tendai practice. If we tried evaluating Tendai practice from the perspective of what makes a practice 'Zen', I think we would leave unsatisfied.


I made this comment here at DharmaWheel in the way I did because, as you note, it would be received the way I wanted it to be received. As you have surely seen so far, it was intended as a provocation to discussion, a provisional claim if you will, and not an ultimate one nor an attempt at classification, nor an introduction of anyone to anything having to do with Tendai-shu. Among all the things Tendai-shu is and does is preserve a specific Tang-era Ch'an transmission. If this implies I am reducing the specificity of Tendai practice and doctrine to contemporary Zen practice, or confusing them with each other, then "grits ain't grocery, eggs ain't poultry, and Mona Lisa was a man"*.

In my experience, when people come to visit our little group in Virginia or the main temple in New York, for most there really are no waters to be muddied. Examples: people who see DHARMA CENTER on the sign and ask when the acting classes start (this is a drama shop, right?). An obscure comment made by an obscure individual on an internet discussion board is surely the least of our concerns when it comes to presenting the teachings well in our local communities to those with zero background in Dharma (those who are concerned about "bushido types" are rather easy to work with by demonstrating, in practice, the opposite--leading by example). For the rest, those who show up with some experience elsewhere or a bag full of books--these people are, in my experience, either clever enough to sort it out for themselves, or clever enough to ask questions and get the explanations they need.

This thread is not the problem you imagine it to be.

*reference for those outside North America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhNOJKXTVVs
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Jikan » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:34 pm

I should add that there's at least one "bushido type" active in this discussion, and quite experienced in Dharma. I have a few here in the DC Tendai group...

ekayana means everyone's welcome to join the dance*


*SPEAKING METAPHORICALLY. I know that "ekayana" doesn't really have to do with dancing &c.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Meido » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:41 pm

Bushido sounds so Meiji-period/"Last Samurai".

The preferred English term is "martial art fanatic". :smile:

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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby Astus » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:48 pm

jikai wrote:That is, many of the great Zen masters are quite 'unorthodox' in light of the sutra and commentary material...aren't they? (forgive me if I am mistaken, as i mentioned, Zen is not my specialty). At least as I understand it, many Chan masters really are in a seperate category of their own. Can they be evaluated in the normal way?


Zen teachers, at least those I know of from past and present, teach straight Mahayana orthodoxy. The major confusing source is how Zen took up a colloquial style in the Song era, although it could as well be considered nothing more than a literary technique, something that was then on copied by later generations and foreigners (i.e. non-Chinese). The casual style of Zen is a tricky one. It can easily become rigid and traditional, very formalised. At the same time, Buddhist teachers/practitioners can very well be spontaneous and friendly emanations of the Dharma who assume a direct form of communication. So, what is a Zen teacher? Many possible answers. Let's translate it to English: meditation instructor. And we know that Buddhism has meditation instructors in practically every school and monastery. Has anyone noticed how Ven. Dharmamitra in his translation of the Xiao Zhiguan says, "Great Tiantai Meditation Master & Exegete: Sramana Zhiyi"?

"The most important thing in recognizing masters is to be able to judge whether they have a correct view of Buddhadharma. If their views of the Dharma are correct, then even if their behavior reveals some weaknesses, they should not be considered false masters. On the other hand, if teachers do not have a correct view of the Dharma, they cannot be considered authentic or virtuous masters." (Sheng-yen: Zen Wisdom, p 27)

"Whoever would bring out the vehicle of Zen and cite the doctrines of the Teaching must first understand what the Buddha meant, then accord with the mind of Zen masters. Only after that can you bring them up and put them into practice, comparing degrees of closeness.
If ... you do not know the doctrines and principles but just stick to a sectarian methodology, when you adduce proofs readily but wrongly, you will bring slander and criticism on yourself."

(Fayan Wenyi: Ten Guidelines for Zen Schools (宗門十規論), in Five Houses of Zen, p 140. see more here)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby jikai » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:00 pm

I am also a long-time Martial 'fanatic' myself :tongue: As we discussed during the Symposium. I was not in any way 'having a go' at 'Bushido types'...I hope that is clear.

Maybe things are different in the States, but here in Australia with a large East Asian community, and being a Western country in Asia, those that come to Buddhist groups usually have some if not a lot of knowledge or 'misknowledge' if you will. They are most often, not new to Buddhism in my experience.

I understand that you are not attempting to make an ultimate statement re classification here. Please understand that I am not saying that this thread is 'the end of the world'. I also understand that you began this forum with the intention to stimulate discussion in a certain way. That is fine. Please understand that I am just suggesting that 'outside of stimulating a discussion' we would do well to be wary of pushing these types of classifications.

Yes, Tendai does preserve Tang-era Zen transmissions, and that is a wonderful thing. But the training that you and I receive respectively owes very little to it directly. Most of our meditative tradition comes from the Tiantai proper transmission. And so, unless you go to Hieizan to specialise in it, I'm not sure that it can be said to be a 'wide reaching influence' on Tendai as a school, and certainly not in contemporary practice.

Please understand that I am just cautioning against absolute statements like 'Tendai is a Chan School'...which is the thread name. That is all...I am not trying to say that the thread itself is 'the greatest of our worries'. Just that I'm not sure this type of classification is helpful- or as I have said, particularly accurate.

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Jikai.
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Re: Tendai is a Ch'an school.

Postby jikai » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:10 pm

Astus wrote:
jikai wrote:That is, many of the great Zen masters are quite 'unorthodox' in light of the sutra and commentary material...aren't they? (forgive me if I am mistaken, as i mentioned, Zen is not my specialty). At least as I understand it, many Chan masters really are in a seperate category of their own. Can they be evaluated in the normal way?


Zen teachers, at least those I know of from past and present, teach straight Mahayana orthodoxy. The major confusing source is how Zen took up a colloquial style in the Song era, although it could as well be considered nothing more than a literary technique, something that was then on copied by later generations and foreigners (i.e. non-Chinese). The casual style of Zen is a tricky one. It can easily become rigid and traditional, very formalised. At the same time, Buddhist teachers/practitioners can very well be spontaneous and friendly emanations of the Dharma who assume a direct form of communication. So, what is a Zen teacher? Many possible answers. Let's translate it to English: meditation instructor. And we know that Buddhism has meditation instructors in practically every school and monastery. Has anyone noticed how Ven. Dharmamitra in his translation of the Xiao Zhiguan says, "Great Tiantai Meditation Master & Exegete: Sramana Zhiyi"?

"The most important thing in recognizing masters is to be able to judge whether they have a correct view of Buddhadharma. If their views of the Dharma are correct, then even if their behavior reveals some weaknesses, they should not be considered false masters. On the other hand, if teachers do not have a correct view of the Dharma, they cannot be considered authentic or virtuous masters." (Sheng-yen: Zen Wisdom, p 27)

"Whoever would bring out the vehicle of Zen and cite the doctrines of the Teaching must first understand what the Buddha meant, then accord with the mind of Zen masters. Only after that can you bring them up and put them into practice, comparing degrees of closeness.
If ... you do not know the doctrines and principles but just stick to a sectarian methodology, when you adduce proofs readily but wrongly, you will bring slander and criticism on yourself."

(Fayan Wenyi: Ten Guidelines for Zen Schools (宗門十規論), in Five Houses of Zen, p 140. see more here)


Thank you Astus, I understand :) I hope my posts did not in any way come off as me dismissing the Chan/Zen transmission. Please forgive me if it did. :cheers:

just as a side note: yes Ven. Dharmamitra did refer to Tiantai Dashi Zhiyi as a 'Meditation Master' or Chanshi, but that is unrelated to the Chan tradition as such (but I do get what you are getting at).
Gassho,
Jikai.
"There are no seperate dharma's in the Three Realms. There is only the operation of the one mind."
"Whoever wishes to benefit beings ought to establish teachings that fit their capacities, expound the dharma in accordance with their capacities, and match the doctrines to them"
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