Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:14 am

mutsuk wrote: Wrong views are to be avoided as the 3rd of the vows of the mind.


Every human view is wrong view, that's part of the surprise I mentioned previously.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby mutsuk » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:22 am

bob wrote:
mutsuk wrote: Wrong views are to be avoided as the 3rd of the vows of the mind.


Every human view is wrong view, that's part of the surprise I mentioned previously.

This is nonsense, you should at least check what wrong views are in buddhism. There is no surprise, you're tripping over your own elaborations. Nisprapanca is the key.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:35 am

Ok, let's rewind a little.

Everyone is welcome to discuss Tolle, his relation or lack thereof to Buddhism, and anything related enough to be considered on topic.

However, the thread is not for airing of past or present personal grievances regarding moderation or anything else.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:02 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Ok, let's rewind a little.

Everyone is welcome to discuss Tolle, his relation or lack thereof to Buddhism, and anything related enough to be considered on topic.

However, the thread is not for airing of past or present personal grievances regarding moderation or anything else.


For the record, I don't have any personal grievances regarding E-sangha at all. I was never banned there and never had any incidents there. I found it quite a useful resource and quite a bemusing spectacle at times.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:19 am

bob wrote:
Every human view is wrong view, that's part of the surprise I mentioned previously.


Oopsee! Ha, as long as there is view there is this and that, "as long as there is a view there is no understanding". I do not know of what and at least cannot compare that.

Many ways to see that, I guess.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:45 am

Is it not our own mind what need to be able to discern what is useful for us, and is it not by the four boundless ones, we cannot exclude anyone?

When not all are included in our practice, it can lead to groups-ego. Critics on a person or a teacher are getting so much reactions, since we all learned to see who is wrong and how to protect us for those wrong ones. This teaches us what is samsara, which is of tremendous important and by which we can see The Four Noble Truths = recognizing our own suffering.

I think we then can be aware of gossip by own mind, which can be lovely wrapped in a paper of good discernment of things.
This is called own mind-discernment. :spy:

Few words I remember from Sakya Master: "A wise learns from all, even from the smallest child, a fool ( like me) can only learn from him/herself". In the middle we follow buddha's advice: examine what is useful for own being to be able to help all".
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby han » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:48 am

bob wrote:
Namu Butsu wrote:
Thanks



Regardless of the dogmas they may have espoused and defended and asserted in their human life, they are made vividly aware that all that really mattered is not their brilliant insights into emptiness, non-duality, dependent origination, etc., but the love that they shared (or didn't) while alive.

If their religious practice served to help them in leading a life of integrity, gratitude, and compassion, eliminating greed, envy, and hatred whenever those tests presented themselves, then it could be considered expedient means, and the person will likely move on to a more advanced curriculum. On the other hand, if their practice led to divisiveness, arrogance, squabbling and bickering, and self-righteousness, then most likely that person will find themselves back for another round in kindergarten, learning the basics of how to behave.


That part sounds like a Christian cycle almost and not familiar to me within Buddhist literature

1. I thought we were all in this together
2. IMV kamma is individualised yet also shared. This is why one person can make a difference within the whole sphere. Energy attracts energy and energy begets energy. In Buddhism, I think we are all given the chances to learn and in genuine meditation / flourishment of practice, even old karma can be cleansed.. I believe anyway and this I don't see the 'cycles' as clear cut as I read your words (noting it wouldn't be the first time I can't interpret adequately)
3. "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do" is akin maybe to the Buddhist concept of ignorance. For those of us mired within delusion and ignorance - and who do not yet have the capacity of true sight - is there real blame .. I wonder, probably yes and no but this is what the Bodhisatvva vows are also about - helping each other even the most lost. Again easier said than done but definitely part of the Buddhist ideology IMO
4. My own fledgling Buddhist practice has always shown me the way is compassion, but also Truth, peace and (now I recall) transcendence ahh yes
5. Your point about love reminds me of Rumi, what a beautiful lover he is!
6. True love is a very beautiful thing if it can be genuinely manifested - this much I know
Buddhism without (true) compassion is not enough, I believe but again so much easier said or believed, than revealed ie lived in someone. I definitely concur with you that this is the place of practice - the deepening of genuine and selfless love and compassion. What a hard job! Thank you
:namaste:
The highest teaching is selfless love . Who can meet this standard?
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Berry » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:13 pm

bob wrote: Every human view is wrong view


I am intrigued as well as puzzled, does this mean you have knowledge of the views of everyone on this planet?

bob wrote:that's part of the surprise I mentioned previously
.

Can I make a guess...was the Buddha giving advice for extraterrestrials when he recommended the practice of Right View in the Noble Eightfold Path?


:?:
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby han » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:23 pm

Buddhism when clung to, used to attack, fight, cause division and right view, is off track IMO

Every Christian, Islamist, etc believer believes and fights or lives for their determined faith and belief. I believe the standard in Buddhism is much higher than that.

Teachers are well known to give advice appropriate to the disposition and capabilities if the student, a good teacher I imagine is unhindered by the label, but seeks to demonstrate and lead to the principle.

HHDL is also worthy of respect, it's far easier to be a fundy (no offence intended)
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:32 pm

han wrote:Buddhism without (true) compassion is not enough, I believe but again so much easier said or believed, than revealed ie lived in someone. I definitely concur with you that this is the place of practice - the deepening of genuine and selfless love and compassion. What a hard job! Thank you
:namaste:


I think it is hard as long as we ourselves are the mistaken me. Ego (you rang My Lord?) is our true refuge and as being that one, we try to realize the buddha's meaning. This looks not only hard but even impossible. I feel it is not helpful to merely blame that ego since it is itself our mistaken view-suffering. Certainly therefore conventional bodhichitta can gradually open our own created wall. Then I allow myself again to take what Bob said about our humans' views, as far as I understand, when nature is not stained by any view, is there genuine Compassion.

I also heard that devotion for a Wisdom Emanation is not different from Compassion for All, since the self dissolves in that love.

:namaste:
Last edited by muni on Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:36 pm

Did I type in dharmawheel.net or feelgoody_everybody_love_everybody_and_everybody_is_right.com?

What utter hogwash!

The Buddha argued, debated, discussed, ignored and dismissed opponents. He called them idiots and fools (especially when they misrepresented him). Explained to them that they would be reborn as animals, in hell realms, etc... for their views and actions. He taught right view.

He even went as far as "excommunicating" members of the Sangha that did not abide by the view he taught.

He disagreed with the views and practices of Jains, Saddhus, Brahmins, etc...

Some of the nonsense being propounded and expounded here has squat to do with the Buddhas teachings. The Buddha was not Rajneesh, he was not a pick and choose new ager, he was an enlightened being that showed the paths that lead toward liberation. Unfortunately not all paths lead to liberation: some lead to fortunate rebirths, the accumulation of merit, etc... and some lead to unfortunate rebirths and the accumulation of negative outcomes.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby han » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:42 pm

Berry wrote:
bob wrote: Every human view is wrong view


I am intrigued as well as puzzled, does this mean you have knowledge of the views of everyone on this planet?


I think (as I read bob) he is referring to absolute practice maybe

Akin to Rigpa, it is beyond right or wrong, this opinion or that, this formation or that (and yet of course there is right and wrong, and karma)

Too hard to say on the Internet, but I wouldn't write it off as hearsay IOW.
:)
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby han » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:45 pm

muni wrote:
I also heard that devotion for a Wisdom Emanation is not different from Compassion for All, since the self dissolves in that love.

:namaste:


Beautiful
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby han » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:54 pm

Listen while i tell you what i have realized.

"liberation by realizing the basis"

The first chapter of

Naturally Liberated Mind, the Great Perfection

The utterly pure view has no extremes or center.

It cannot be indicated by saying "it is this," nor is there in it any distinctions of height or width.

It transcends eternalism and nihilism, and it is free from the stains of the four assertions of extremes.

Sought, it will not be found; watched, it is not seen.

It is detached from directions and partiality, and it transcends all the objects of conception.

It has no standpoint, neither voidness nor non-voidness.

There is no realized and unrealized, no counting, nor objective aim.

//Longchenpa

And right view is an essential part of the noble Eightfold path, taught extensively by teachers everywhere and essential to many's cultivation practices

I wouldn't discount either but just sayin' it might not be as heretical as some are saying.

Said too much already, goodbye :namaste:
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:58 pm

And while we are at it let's talk about suitable sources of refuge (for a Buddhist):

Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, for the Sravakayana and common Mahayana and we add Guru, Deva, Dakini for the Vajrayana.

I may practice offerings to the Naga (for example) but I am fully aware that they are not suitable sources of refuge.

Now if you are not a Buddhist... But, last I checked, this was a Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, so I cannot see why one would be outraged (or find it strange) that Buddhists may be stating that Buddhism is the path to liberation.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:00 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Did I type in dharmawheel.net or feelgoody_everybody_love_everybody_and_everybody_is_right.com?

What utter hogwash!

The Buddha argued, debated, discussed, ignored and dismissed opponents. He called them idiots and fools (especially when they misrepresented him). Explained to them that they would be reborn as animals, in hell realms, etc... for their views and actions. He taught right view.

He disagreed with the views and practices of Jains, Saddhus, Brahmins, etc...

Some of the nonsense being propounded and expounded here has squat to do with the Buddhas teachings. The Buddha was not Rajneesh, he was not a pick and choose new ager, he was an enlightened being that showed the paths that lead toward liberation. Unfortunately not all paths lead to liberation: some lead to fortunate rebirths, the accumulation of merit, etc... and some lead to unfortunate rebirths and the accumulation of negative outcomes.


You are right, buddhism is not about a one who feels good and a one who loves everyone. Right view is necessary on the path, which concerns own practice, not the one of others. In fact, buddha saw no fools, no idiots. lol !

As far as I know debats are a tool, based on a given teaching in order to sharpen mind and be freed from the production ( mistaken view) of all fools. :namaste:
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby han » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:11 pm

Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
To the Buddha for refuge I go
To the Dharma for refuge I go
To the Sangha for refuge I go
Dutiyampi buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Dutiyampi dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Dutiyampi saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
For the second time ...
Tatiyampi buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Tatiyampi dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Tatiyampi saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
For the third time...
The highest teaching is selfless love . Who can meet this standard?
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Berry » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:34 pm

han wrote:
Berry wrote:
bob wrote: Every human view is wrong view


I am intrigued as well as puzzled, does this mean you have knowledge of the views of everyone on this planet?


I think (as I read bob) he is referring to absolute practice maybe

Akin to Rigpa, it is beyond right or wrong, this opinion or that, this formation or that (and yet of course there is right and wrong, and karma)

Too hard to say on the Internet, but I wouldn't write it off as hearsay IOW.
:)
:namaste:



How do you think one actually does "absolute practice" on a relative daily level - and especially when posting on the internet to people with different levels of understanding ?

In general, Is it ok for someone to be a dominating bully if they think their own practice is "beyond right or wrong" ?
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:21 pm

The 84,000 doors link I posted earlier comes straight from David N. Snyder (owner of this forum).

padma norbu wrote:84,000 Dhamma doors
From The Dhamma Encyclopedia
The 84,000 Dhamma doors are a metaphor to basically state that there are innumerable paths to enlightenment. In the Mahayana it is referred to as doors and in the Pali Canon it is referred to as the 84,000 teachings (Khuddaka Nikaya, Theragatha 1024). This is a representative teaching to the Buddha’s tolerance for other religions. Anyone following any religion who is basically a good, moral person is assured to reach that religion’s goal, which is typically heaven. In the Buddhist cosmology there are several heavenly realms all of which are attainable by members of any religion.
(from KN, Theragatha 1024)
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... amma_doors


References
The Complete Book of Buddha's Lists -- Explained. David N. Snyder, Ph.D., 2006.
http://www.thedhamma.com/
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby mutsuk » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:31 pm

padma norbu wrote:The 84,000 doors link I posted earlier comes straight from David N. Snyder (owner of this forum).

padma norbu wrote:84,000 Dhamma doors
From The Dhamma Encyclopedia
The 84,000 Dhamma doors are a metaphor to basically state that there are innumerable paths to enlightenment. In the Mahayana it is referred to as doors and in the Pali Canon it is referred to as the 84,000 teachings (Khuddaka Nikaya, Theragatha 1024). This is a representative teaching to the Buddha’s tolerance for other religions. Anyone following any religion who is basically a good, moral person is assured to reach that religion’s goal, which is typically heaven. In the Buddhist cosmology there are several heavenly realms all of which are attainable by members of any religion.
(from KN, Theragatha 1024)
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... amma_doors


References
The Complete Book of Buddha's Lists -- Explained. David N. Snyder, Ph.D., 2006.
http://www.thedhamma.com/

It does not change the fact that this theragatha 1024 reference has nothing to do with so called tolerance for other religions. Have you read the corresponding passage ?
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