Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:57 pm

I love talking face to face about this kind of stuff. Usually when I try it though the other people get up and leave, lol.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:10 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
muni wrote:
Yes sure, all what helps to see clear or sharpen mind can be shared. As long as there is mindfulness, not a free ticket for training the dualistic mind, which habits are so stubborn and contagious.
I heard that liberation is not so difficult but our habits are too strong.


So scrutinizing Tolle automatically falls into the "bad" category? Having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say here Muni.


Scrutinizing. The Buddha explained this very well, we shouldn't accept whatever is said or written down but examine very well. Whether we do that by mindfulness or not is our own responsability for our liberation and the sake of all.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:15 pm

muni wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
muni wrote:
Yes sure, all what helps to see clear or sharpen mind can be shared. As long as there is mindfulness, not a free ticket for training the dualistic mind, which habits are so stubborn and contagious.
I heard that liberation is not so difficult but our habits are too strong.


So scrutinizing Tolle automatically falls into the "bad" category? Having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say here Muni.


Scrutinizing. The Buddha explained this very well, we shouldn't accept whatever is said or written down but examine very well. Whether we do that by mindfulness or not is our own responsability for our liberation and the sake of all.



What is the mindful way to scrutinize Tolle?
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:27 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
What is the mindful way to scrutinize Tolle?


Mindfulness is not dependent on a particular phenomena. Probably our 'understanding' of mindfulness depends on our practice.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:55 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:What is the mindful way to scrutinize Tolle?


Not just for Tolle, but for any teaching one might encounter, I have found the following to be helpful:

Does it inspire love, joy, humility, gratitude, spaciousness, freedom, peace in one's heart, or does it inspire fear, divisiveness, contraction, hatred, arrogance, despair, or enviousness. If the former, it can be skillful means, if the latter, not so.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:26 pm

bob wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:What is the mindful way to scrutinize Tolle?


Not just for Tolle, but for any teaching one might encounter, I have found the following to be helpful:

Does it inspire love, joy, humility, gratitude, spaciousness, freedom, peace in one's heart, or does it inspire fear, divisiveness, contraction, hatred, arrogance, despair, or enviousness. If the former, it can be skillful means, if the latter, not so.



I don't think anyone has engaged in the latter in this thread, and I also think it's disingenuous to equate that sort of description with simple questioning of a teacher and what they teach.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:32 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I don't think anyone has engaged in the latter in this thread...


I never claimed that anyone had.


... I also think it's disingenuous to equate that sort of description with simple questioning of a teacher and what they teach.


I simply offered what I found helpful in assessing any teaching, in response to your question. Others may employ other criteria.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:37 pm

Personally, my feeling is that criticism does not always sounds like it comes from a place of
love, joy, humility, gratitude, spaciousness, freedom, peace in one's heart
when one disagrees with the conclusions of that criticism, heck..it wouldn't really be criticism if it only made us feel warm fuzzies. That doesn't say anything about the intention behind it though. So often, there are things that are uncomfortable, that are still being said in good faith, regardless of how they make us feel at the time.

That is the rough part of discussions like this, our tendency is to immediately say "what you're REALLY doing is this", when in fact, most people might be talking from a place of good faith, even if we don't see it at the time:)
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:38 pm

JD, I think you're misunderstanding bob. He can speak for himself, but I understood him to mean using this criteria in regards to Tolle's teaching, for example, or someone else, not your critique of it.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:43 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Personally, my feeling is that criticism does not always sounds like it comes from a place of
love, joy, humility, gratitude, spaciousness, freedom, peace in one's heart
when one disagrees with the conclusions of that criticism


We were not talking about criticism of a teaching, but the assessment of a teaching itself. Your question was, how to assess Tolle mindfully, not the criticism of Tolle, iirc.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:45 pm

I get it, i'm just playing devil's advocate a bit because of the tendency in previous Tolle threads for discussion to go south (IMO obviously) by these sorts of misunderstandings. Trust me there are no hard feelings here whatsoever and i'm enjoying the thread.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:48 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I get it, i'm just playing devil's advocate a bit because of the tendency in previous Tolle threads for discussion to get shut down by these sorts of misunderstandings. Trust me there are no hard feelings here whatsoever and i'm enjoying the thread.


My main critique of Tolle is that he is fixated with the "I Am" illusion. He would certainly benefit from an encounter with a qualified guide who could help him get beyond that stage, imo.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:50 pm

bob wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I get it, i'm just playing devil's advocate a bit because of the tendency in previous Tolle threads for discussion to get shut down by these sorts of misunderstandings. Trust me there are no hard feelings here whatsoever and i'm enjoying the thread.


My main critique of Tolle is that he is fixated with the "I Am" illusion. He would certainly benefit from an encounter with a qualified guide who could help him get beyond that stage, imo.


Is it an unfortunate turn of phrase or does it indicate real misunderstanding on Tolle's part? How he describes "I am" seems like he's talking about an awareness beyond ego awareness, imo.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:52 pm

It always sounds more Advaita than Buddhist, I don't know a whole lot about Advaita though, so i'm just intuiting that.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:01 pm

padma norbu wrote:
bob wrote:My main critique of Tolle is that he is fixated with the "I Am" illusion. He would certainly benefit from an encounter with a qualified guide who could help him get beyond that stage, imo.


Is it an unfortunate turn of phrase or does it indicate real misunderstanding on Tolle's part? How he describes "I am" seems like he's talking about an awareness beyond ego awareness, imo.


Clinging to "I Am" is still a fantasy of interpretation on perception. It's a slight landing, a slight grasping. It's very subtle identification,but when it collapses, one is even beyond "I am That" -- indescribable.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:03 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:It always sounds more Advaita than Buddhist, I don't know a whole lot about Advaita though, so i'm just intuiting that.


"As the Absolute, you were free from all concepts, including the primary concept "I Am". You did not have this concept "I Am" in the course of the nine months in the womb. Understand this state of affairs; the concept "I Am" comes spontaneously and goes spontaneously. Amazingly, when it appears, it is accepted as real. All subsequent misconceptions
arise from that feeling of reality in the "I Amness". Why am I totally free? Because I have understood the unreality of that "I Am".

~Sri Nisargadatta

From 3-4-81 Consciousness and the Absolute
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Berry » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:07 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Of course what we seek ultimately is beyond discrimination, but Buddhism has a long history of emphasizing discrimination with spiritual teachings, for better and worse admittedly. I don't think it is somehow "non buddhist" to ask question or analyze teachings or teachers, in fact it's a big part of "Buddhism" from the Buddha on up to do that.


Well said, Johhny. Being discouraged from asking questions or analysing teachings or teachers, seems similar to some of the cult techniques I've read about.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby oushi » Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:11 pm

Ekchard Tolle: 3/10
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:44 am

Hmmm, this might be kind of a negative idea, but do you think there's any use for a thread about bad dharma books? I think you actually collect bad karma if you criticize other dharma teachers, right? Namkhai Norbu said something like that once, but I don't remember the specifics. I think he said if someone is teaching wrong, it is not your job to tell the world and it is better not to do so because you create problems for yourself. I thought that was interesting.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:19 am

padma norbu wrote:Hmmm, this might be kind of a negative idea, but do you think there's any use for a thread about bad dharma books? I think you actually collect bad karma if you criticize other dharma teachers, right? Namkhai Norbu said something like that once, but I don't remember the specifics. I think he said if someone is teaching wrong, it is not your job to tell the world and it is better not to do so because you create problems for yourself. I thought that was interesting.
Pointing to a pile of steaming bullshit and calling it bullshit hardly seems like a cause for 10,000,000,000,000 rebirths in the hell realms. Not to me anyway. I could be wrong though, but I'm willing to take my chances.
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