Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Lindama » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:34 pm

I like that Muni... home made art. :smile:
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:54 pm

Simon E. wrote:
bob wrote:
Is he really claiming mastery, or just an understanding of the essence of those teachings? There is a big difference.



No, there really isn't.


Yes, there is, Simon. There are realized people, who nevertheless are not capable of teaching or communicating their understanding effectively, and then there are those who have completed their cultivation stage so that they are qualified to teach (properly), and moreover have the siddhi to do so. Those are true masters, who are capable of bringing their students to the same level as themselves.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby smcj » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:06 pm

A thorough understanding of the physics involved in riding a bicycle is different than being able to ride a bicycle.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:25 pm

Lindama wrote: I saw Adyashanti before he got big... it's not hard to see him as an old zen master who speaks from emptiness, after all he trained in zen. It was easier to see before he got big.... before people made him big... (btw, before Oprah made Tolle big, but he was acually already big for many). In my mind, it's no diff than the second ancestor who cut off his arm to prove how serious he was about wanting a teacher... many people are wanting more. My take is that Adya had to altar his teaching for the audience.... he used to speak more like a zen master without ever uttering a word of zen. The silence was stunning, and still is at times. Nowadays, people are at many stages of awakening and I at least see that he tries to include a wider audience. So, now, we are into a new arena... it's not so easy to discern what is awakening and what is skillful means to address the masses who are hungry for their own spiritual inheritance.


Although folks pay lip service to the 84,000 dharma doors notion, what we find on most Buddhist websites is the fixed belief that there is really only one way, and unless someone like Adyashanti is aligned with a particular approved lineage, and sporting the proper paperwork and robes, then they should be excluded from being taken seriously as a teacher of liberation.
In fact, I studied with a number of "official" Buddhist Zen Masters, and Adya was by far the more effective teacher in communicating the essence of awakening and bringing his students to authentic recognition. (Moreover, he has refrained from running after his female students, which cannot be said for a legion of official Buddhist teachers.)
Of course, it has always been like this down through history. Look at Al Halaj, who was executed for his "heresy", or Marguerite Porete, burned at the stake for her realization. Unless you subscribe to the official club rules, be prepared to duck.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Lindama » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:38 pm

:woohoo:

omg, it's hrtbeat! :group:
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:46 pm

bob wrote:
Lindama wrote: I saw Adyashanti before he got big... it's not hard to see him as an old zen master who speaks from emptiness, after all he trained in zen. It was easier to see before he got big.... before people made him big... (btw, before Oprah made Tolle big, but he was acually already big for many). In my mind, it's no diff than the second ancestor who cut off his arm to prove how serious he was about wanting a teacher... many people are wanting more. My take is that Adya had to altar his teaching for the audience.... he used to speak more like a zen master without ever uttering a word of zen. The silence was stunning, and still is at times. Nowadays, people are at many stages of awakening and I at least see that he tries to include a wider audience. So, now, we are into a new arena... it's not so easy to discern what is awakening and what is skillful means to address the masses who are hungry for their own spiritual inheritance.


Although folks pay lip service to the 84,000 dharma doors notion, what we find on most Buddhist websites is the fixed belief that there is really only one way, and unless someone like Adyashanti is aligned with a particular approved lineage, and sporting the proper paperwork and robes, then they should be excluded from being taken seriously as a teacher of liberation.
In fact, I studied with a number of "official" Buddhist Zen Masters, and Adya was by far the more effective teacher in communicating the essence of awakening and bringing his students to authentic recognition. (Moreover, he has refrained from running after his female students, which cannot be said for a legion of official Buddhist teachers.)
Of course, it has always been like this down through history. Look at Al Halaj, who was executed for his "heresy", or Marguerite Porete, burned at the stake for her realization. Unless you subscribe to the official club rules, be prepared to duck.



Yes, obviously having a discriminating mind about spiritual teachings is tantamount to burning people at the stake. :roll:

The hyperbole is really pointless, I'm not saying that as a mod either, rather as a participant. This is a Buddhist forum, so it is pretty natural that Tolle will be discussed in that context, why that would bother anyone I have no idea. I don't think it's fair to cry "close mindedness" every time someone questions a teacher of spirituality.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:02 pm

Lindama wrote::woohoo:

omg, it's hrtbeat! :group:


:tongue: Alas, my 2nd grade grammar school nun once warned me, "Fools' names and fools' faces are often found in public places."


And Johnny, discrimination is one thing, preconceived bias is another. I was pointing to the tendency on Buddhist boards towards the latter. It's the same on other "spiritual-type" boards -- seems to be a human trait. :shrug:
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:03 pm

bob wrote:
Lindama wrote::woohoo:

omg, it's hrtbeat! :group:


:tongue: Alas, my 2nd grade grammar school nun once warned me, "Fools' names and fools' faces are often found in public places."


And Johnny, discrimination is one thing, preconceived bias is another. I was pointing to the tendency on Buddhist boards towards the latter. It's the same on other "spiritual-type" boards -- seems to be a human trait. :shrug:


It's just as easy to find people who argue for ecumenism or broad inclusiveness at the expense of critical thought, in fact that is a really common trend in American spirituality generally I think, so the pendulum can swing too far in either direction, IMO.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:07 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's just as easy to find people who claim ecumenism at the expense of critical thought, in fact that is a really common trend in American spirituality generally, so the pendulum can swing too far in either direction, IMO.


Indeed!
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:21 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:

Yes, obviously having a discriminating mind about spiritual teachings is tantamount to burning people at the stake. :roll:



:namaste: Sorry Johnny.

Buddhism. As I learn buddhism is teaching the discriminating mind its opinions are not to rely on. I learn simple things like: „samsara is the tendency to find faults with others“.

Then wisdoms’ discrimination is not the same.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:28 pm

muni wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:

Yes, obviously having a discriminating mind about spiritual teachings is tantamount to burning people at the stake. :roll:



:namaste: Sorry Johnny.

Buddhism. As I learn buddhism is teaching the discriminating mind its opinions are not to rely on. I learn simple things like: „samsara is the tendency to find faults with others“.

Then wisdoms’ discrimination is not the same.



Of course what we seek ultimately is beyond discrimination, but Buddhism has a long history of emphasizing discrimination with spiritual teachings, for better and worse admittedly. I don't think it is somehow "non buddhist" to ask question or analyze teachings or teachers, in fact it's a big part of "Buddhism" from the Buddha on up to do that.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby daverupa » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:29 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's just as easy to find people who argue for ecumenism or broad inclusiveness at the expense of critical thought, in fact that is a really common trend in American spirituality generally I think.


Indeed. Nice quip, accurate and concise.

bob wrote:Although folks pay lip service to the 84,000 dharma doors notion... Unless you subscribe to the official club rules, be prepared to duck.


Oddly enough, "84,000 dharma doors", as a notion, is part of one particular set of official club rules, and is not the evenhanded ecumenical umbrella it's often taken for.

:shrug:
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:31 pm

I've been thinking about these sort of conversations for a while now, how people will :roll: if someone says something that doesn't jibe with Buddhism. But, comically, Buddhists have been disagreeing with each other since the beginning about Buddhism. Is it mind-only or is it "yes, but you don't know what is meant by 'mind-only'" or, when speaking about dzogchen, things get even more difficult to agree on. I just posted a quote recently from "Naturally Liberating Whatever You Meet":

"This mind-essence is the nature of all sentient beings, the realization of the buddhas of the three times, the essence of the 84,000 dharma-doors and the heart of the glorious master, the supreme guide. It is the transcendent knowledge of the second set of teachings and the sugata-essence of the last turning of the Wheel of the Dharma. According to the general system of mantra it is called "continuity of ground," the spontaneously present mandala of the inherent nature. According to the Annuttara tantraas it is called Guhyasamaja, Chakrasamvara, Kalachakra and so forth."

Now, if you take all these things into consideration, there is something which I probably can't express without causing disagreement, but this "mind-essence" being discussed here seems to be behind all manner of conceptual fabrications and maya phantasmagoria. But, if someone from a different tradition describes it a particular way and isn't claiming to follow any of the many Buddhist traditions, we get this: :roll:

I consider myself a dzogchen practitioner, but I believe the truth of Buddhism, too. By that, I mean that all the various teachings and concepts are relatively true. The mind-essence has taken form as samsara and its inhabitants, the pure lands and their inhabitants, Guhyasamaja, Chakrasamvara, Kalachakra, etc. It can probably take a lot of forms that are meaningful. I have a "free belief" mentality about it, really, which can be summed up by a few quotes from another non-Buddhist (Austin Osman Spare):

"Wisdom is a stasis: Knowledge is like the 'snake of eternity', constantly eating itself and never finishing."

and, he even put down Buddhist methods (as some dzogchen texts seem to) while saying something which sounds pretty Buddhist / Dzogchen at the same time...

"Shit: jumpers to conclusions, generalizationists, malapropists, dream-fed wishful thinkers, self-hypnotized ideologists, materialists, Maya-mongers, zombie-zenists, the dirty-tedious apologists of Gods and men, and many other "schools"—all destroy their own arguments by having to make use of that which they deny. Thus: "Know that nothing can be known", which at least implies that you know that you cannot know. I assert that that Knowledge is the potential of knowing ultimately all things. Again, "all is illusion", "all is unreal", "the intelligence is false", "we have no direct experience of personality"… ad nauseam. And so we have the reality of illusion as one delusion falsifying another. For if the reality we are all aware of is unreal and we, illusionary automata without personality, and everything false, how can we know whether it is illusion or know of an Absolute from our unknowableness?

But! We are of the Absolute, in as much as…! Otherwise, neither you nor I, nor our mental powers, are any 'different' from the amoeba or indeed a speck of protoplasm. Or is there a difference? And therein lies the answer. If we cannot know what is the truth, then perhaps we can establish a negative, i.e., know what is inessential to truth? The answer is both and neither, for all things are essential to truth because all things are true. How could anything be untrue? Our 'confusion' is that we wrongly relate them in time and place. (emphasis mine) Moreover, Truth (for us) is always enwrapped in our belief, whatever it may be. But, if I cannot explain the Truth—for it would slip away from me—then I can truly assert I am the living truth.

Within the prison of dimensions and the cage of words [1] we feed as necrophagists on our catch-penny phrases. The reality we all see and relate to—in its expansion, contraction and superimpositions—is still unexploited, undisclosed; yet whatever we demand of this 'reality' shall come out of it. If you demand of Nature, autonomy, be sure you will receive a little more than you can stomach. All this glib denial of experience is self-defeating: are you not now experiencing my knowledge via your own reasoning faculty—or are you a mackerel?"

[1] "All cognitions brought about by words are ultimately false:" viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14965&view=unread#unread
....

I understand all this well from a dzogchen perspective. I'm not sure if that's exactly what he's talking about, but it completes my thought about what is true? regarding all these various Buddhist philosophies or 84,000 doorways? Austin Spare here says "all things are true, how could anything be untrue?" and he's right... of course, until you want to talk about the lack of inherent existence in all things... but, that's not what he's talking about, because he does make that point, too, regarding relative truth. For that, we have another phrase I like attributed to Hassan-I-Sabbah: "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ... and that also rings very true for me... until you make the point about Buddha Nature... because Buddha Nature is true, isn't it? Yes, except to those who don't recognize it; for them, their truth is that there is no Buddha Nature. Not true for us, but true for them.

Point being? I don't know if I can express it any better. Buddhism expresses it quite well and maybe other teachers not so well. ;)
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:33 pm

And, btw, not meant to be comparing religious philosophies. Very briefly touching on some points was only necessary to make the point I was trying to make about mind-essence and the nature of reality as well as the 84,000 doors.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:38 pm

Right..reality is beyond dualisms, I think any Buddhist probably agrees with that, at least any Mahayanist. Things don't actually exists as "true" or "untrue" ultimately..but that is the whole thing, if we are going to discuss stuff we can do only do so conventionally, I figure that's a given in any conversation like this...which makes "but in ultimate truth there is no discrimination" a bit of a pointless statement, we are here discussing stuff, which by definition only involves conventional means.

I don't know at what point it just turns into sophistry, I should probably shut up more than I do...I just don't think having this idea that any kind of scrutiny is useless proliferation is a good one.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:41 pm

I think it is good to be skeptical. I think only when minds actually meet, we have agreement. Otherwise, we are in disagreement and honesty is always the best policy!
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:47 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:



Of course what we seek ultimately is beyond discrimination, but Buddhism has a long history of emphasizing discrimination with spiritual teachings, for better and worse admittedly. I don't think it is somehow "non buddhist" to ask question or analyze teachings or teachers, in fact it's a big part of "Buddhism" from the Buddha on up to do that.[/quote]


Yes sure, all what helps to see clear or sharpen mind can be shared. As long as there is mindfulness, not a free ticket for training the dualistic mind, which habits are so stubborn and contagious.
I heard that liberation is not so difficult but our habits are too strong.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:50 pm

muni wrote:
Yes sure, all what helps to see clear or sharpen mind can be shared. As long as there is mindfulness, not a free ticket for training the dualistic mind, which habits are so stubborn and contagious.
I heard that liberation is not so difficult but our habits are too strong.


So scrutinizing Tolle automatically falls into the "bad" category? Having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say here Muni.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:50 pm

muni wrote:I heard that liberation is not so difficult but our habits are too strong.


I have no justification for saying this because I am no authority on anything, but that strikes me as very accurate and true. Thanks for sharing that! :smile:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:53 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:So scrutinizing Tolle can't fall into that category? Having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say here Muni.


On the contrary, scrutinizing Tolle has helped me immensely clarify some of my own thoughts that have been gurgling in the background now for several months. I love open dialogs like these. I only wish I knew more people in face-to-face life who were willing to talk like this. Of course, it's much different (better, clearer, memorable) to be able to write your thoughts down than back-and-forth speaking, so maybe I'm lucky there aren't many people I know to talk to face-to-face.
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