Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:19 pm

Lindama wrote:say, awakening is beyond it all

amazed that we judge those by one standard... another religous war, eh?

the only thing is value lies in those who receive it :namaste:



This strikes me as a really non-critical response Lindama, It is a basic tenet of any Buddhist system to always question and evaluate a teacher before committing to their stuff, for a set of really good reasons. Now, it's questionable how often people live up to that, but the impulse is a vital one for authentic spirituality, I think.

So it's true that some unfairly criticize Tolle for things like association with Oprah, on the other hand..I think i've made some inquiries earlier that worth paying attention to, so i'll try to re frame them a bit:

First: Does Tolle believe himself enlightened, or sufficiently realized such that he no longer requires teaching or guidance from anyone? Does he, or has he ever had a flesh and blood teacher?

The reason I ask is that the guy has supposedly no formal training, yet finds all these differently philosophies to coincidentally be basically exactly like what he is teaching. That being the case if we are forced to evaluate him we have to either ask, is he a fully self enlightened sort of the kind that needs no teacher, or is he simply appropriating spiritual teaching and calling it his own? Personally the lack of a teacher, combined wit the more than passing similarity to established traditions is pretty questionable in my book, whether it's from him or anyone else. It would be different if he had his own views, including refutation of points of previous thinkers (that is more in line with the historical position of the Buddha, IMO)..but that is not the case, unless i'm mistaken.

Anyway, I'm trying to keep away from the hyperbole about him on either side, that seems like the sanest approach to me. honestly I think this thread will go better if both sides can do that - stay away from the hyperbole. Don't you guys?

Padma Norbu:

If someone condemns someone else for liking or admiring Tolle, particularly another teacher, that kind of guilt by association is ridiculous, but I haven't seen anyone do that, so it's a bit of a red herring. We get to make our own (hopefully informed) choices I think.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:22 pm

greentara wrote:Padma norbu, "Why wouldn't he accept Oprah's offer, if he felt these were good teachings to benefit people?" Well if only he was doing it to benefit people? If only he had no other motive!
Padma discrimination is always needed when dealing with a teacher. How much is he charging and are his talks nothing but a huge money making venue? Work it out for yourself, I think its best to say no more.


Wait wait wait, you do realize there are a lot of gurus selling books and making money, don't you? I have a thread called "Selling The Dharma" you might want to look at. Work it out for myself? Why do you think TNH and HHDL have gone on Oprah? Weren't you the one to point that out? Why do you think Namkhai Norbu gives open webcasts? A: To reach a large audience.

I'm just trying to be open-minded here. I don't think the fact that he makes money means anything since so many others do as well. If the truth comes out that he never lived on a park bench for 2 years, broke and eating maybe 1 meal a day, but was really employed and doing fine, then I'll call him a liar. Until then, it doesn't seem fair to judge him by a different set of criteria.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:52 pm

From http://www.inner-growth.info/power_of_now_tolle/eckhart_tolle_interview_parker.htm:
You mentioned that after a profound realization had occurred you read spiritual texts and spent time with various teachers. Can you share what writings and teachers had the greatest effect on you in further realizing what had been revealed to you?

Yes. The texts I came in contact with—first I picked up a copy of the New Testament almost by accident, maybe half a year, a year after it happened, and reading the words of Jesus and feeling the essence and power behind those words. And I immediately understood at a deeper level the meaning of those words. I knew intuitively with absolute certainty that certain statements attributed to Jesus were added later, because they did not "emanate" from that place, that state of consciousness, because I knew that place, I know that place. But when a statement emanates from that place, there is recognition. And when it does not, no matter how clever or intelligent it may sound it lacks that essence and it does not have that power. In other words, it does not emanate from the stillness. So that was an incredible realization, just reading and understanding "beyond mind" the deeper meaning of those words.

Then came the Bhagavad Gita, I also had an immediate, deep understanding of and an incredible love for such a divine work. The Tao Te Ching; also an immediate understanding. And often knowing, "Oh, that's not a correct translation.” I knew the translator had misunderstood, and knew what the real meaning was although I do not know any Chinese. So I immediately had access to the essence of those texts. Then I also started reading on Buddhism and immediately understood the essence of Buddhism. I saw the simplicity of the original teaching of the Buddha compared to the complexity of subsequent additions, philosophy, all the baggage that over the centuries accumulated around Buddhism, and saw the essence of the original teaching. I have a great love for the teaching of the Buddha, a teaching of such power and sublime simplicity. I even spent time in Buddhist monasteries. During my time in England there were already several Buddhist monasteries.

I met and listened to some teachers that helped me understand my own state. In the beginning there was a Buddhist monk, Achan Sumedo, abbot of two or three monasteries in England. He's a Western-born Buddhist.

And in London I spent some time with Barry Long. I also understood things more deeply, simply through listening and having some conversations with him. And there were other teachers who were just as meaningful whom I never met in person that I feel a very strong connection to. One is [J.] Krishnamurti, and another is Ramana Maharshi. I feel a deep link. And I feel actually that the work I do is a coming together of the teaching "stream," if you want to call it that, of Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi. They seem very, very dissimilar, but I feel that in my teaching the two merge into one. It is the heart of Ramana Maharshi, and Krishnamurti's ability to see the false, as such and point out how it works. So Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi, I love them deeply. I feel completely at One with them. And it is a continuation of the teaching.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:04 am

Wow, he's really good at immediately understanding the essence of stuff. :thinking:

That seems to answer my question..basically, with a couple of exceptions, he feels he needs no teacher, it seems. Even more, I guess he thinks that (despite lack of technical familiarity with these various traditions), he has the "correct" understanding of them? Implicitly, this seems like quite a claim of realization to me.

Maybe it's just my confirmation bias talking, but this seems to be exactly what I was talking about...

For those who like Tolle, or have found him particularly valuable, what is your take on this quote? Am I missing something?
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:24 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Wow, he's really good at immediately understanding the essence of stuff.


In the Zen literature in particular, it is not uncommon for those practitioners, upon experiencing a profound awakening, to find the sutras and sayings of the patriarchs, etc. to be clear and transparent. There are numerous testimonies to that effect down through the ages. Moreover, you can test this yourself, should you be graced with a comparable awakening. What may have seem previously abstruse may be revealed as the utmost obviousness.

..basically, with a couple of exceptions, he feels he needs no teacher, it seems.


"I met and listened to some teachers that helped me understand my own state." ~Tolle

Although uncommon, there are nevertheless examples in the traditions of those who have awakened without the recourse of a teacher. Ramana Maharshi is one recent example. Of course, we do not know how much work they did in previous lives, with and/or without teachers, that laid the groundwork for this life. In any case, rather than judge someone like Tolle by how closely they align to your conditioned notion of what constitutes awakening and fitness to speak, perhaps it is better to turn the light around and look after one's own practice.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:27 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:... always question and evaluate a teacher before committing to their stuff ... Does Tolle believe himself enlightened ...

Chuckle - ya that's the first thing I asked my teacher. :rolling:
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:30 am

bob wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Wow, he's really good at immediately understanding the essence of stuff.


In the Zen literature in particular, it is not uncommon for those practitioners, upon experiencing a profound awakening, to find the sutras and sayings of the patriarchs, etc. to be clear and transparent. There are numerous testimonies to that effect down through the ages. Moreover, you can test this yourself, should you be graced with a comparable awakening. What may have seem previously abstruse may be revealed as the utmost obviousness.

..basically, with a couple of exceptions, he feels he needs no teacher, it seems.


"I met and listened to some teachers that helped me understand my own state." ~Tolle

Although uncommon, there are nevertheless examples in the traditions of those who have awakened without the recourse of a teacher. Ramana Maharshi is one recent example. Of course, we do not know how much work they did in previous lives, with and/or without teachers, that laid the groundwork for this life. In any case, rather than judge someone like Tolle by how closely they align to your conditioned notion of what constitutes awakening and fitness to speak, perhaps it is better to turn the light around and look after one's own practice.



On the one hand, I think there is some truth to this, on the other hand, it pays to be critical when deciding whether or not to listen to someone's teachings, including investigating whether or not you think their actions comport with what they teach.

The Zen comparison (or any Buddhist tradition) is a weird one I think, because in most of these stories, the person is already familiar with the culture and backdrop of the spiritual tradition in question. In most cases it is not, for instance, someone who does not speak the language, from the other side of the world, claiming to have complete mastery of a text. Or at least, I have a hard time relating what Tolle says here to (for isntance) some of the more miraculous stories of realization in Mahayana sutras, etc.

It's easy to see being critical of Tolle as some kind of spiritual aggressiveness, trust me, it's not. I'm just doing my best to evaluate his words from my own point of view, if they mean something else to you that's great. I think though, that if we are going to discuss him it's a bit of a cop out to simply say that people should essentially mind their own business when someone makes claims like this, which seem to include mastery of the traditions this board discusses. I can take that kind of advice from my teacher, but this is a public message board, made for just that purpose.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:38 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:... it pays to be critical when deciding whether or not to listen to someone's teachings, including investigating whether or not you think their actions comport with what they teach.


Certainly, if one is considering taking that person on as their teacher, it makes sense to check them out at length. AFFAIK, his behavior has thus far been beyond reproach , and he apparently lives a rather modest life dedicated to serving via writing and speaking. On the other hand, appearances can be deceiving. For example, the second Zen patriarch often visited brothels, and when asked about that, replied to his critics that "it was none of their business".
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:42 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote: I think though, that if we are going to discuss him it's a bit of a cop out to simply say that people should essentially mind their own business when someone makes claims like this, which seem to include mastery of the traditions this board discusses. I can take that kind of advice from my teacher, but this is a public message board, made for just that purpose.


Is he really claiming mastery, or just an understanding of the essence of those teachings? There is a big difference.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:45 am

bob wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: I think though, that if we are going to discuss him it's a bit of a cop out to simply say that people should essentially mind their own business when someone makes claims like this, which seem to include mastery of the traditions this board discusses. I can take that kind of advice from my teacher, but this is a public message board, made for just that purpose.


Is he really claiming mastery, or just an understanding of the essence of those teachings? There is a big difference.


Label it however you want, but when he says things about understanding "the real" teaching of the Buddha - as opposed to whatever he's defining as NOT the real teaching, that is quite the grand claim, particularly for someone with no actual experience in the tradition, or very little. I imagine i'm not alone in viewing a statement like that with some suspicion.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:49 am

Not that anyone cares what I think, but just to be clear, I am not endorsing or recommending Tolle. I haven't really kept up with his activities, but when I did look into him he seemed pretty harmless. It's not so terrible for someone who has "a great love for the teaching of the Buddha" to be Oprah's guru or whatever, is it?
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:49 am

No, I don't think it is that terrible at all.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby bob » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:57 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Label it however you want, but when he says things about understanding "the real" teaching of the Buddha - as opposed to whatever he's defining as NOT the real teaching, that is quite the grand claim, particularly for someone with no actual experience in the tradition, or very little. I imagine i'm not alone in viewing a statement like that with some suspicion.


Hehe, personally I am suspicious of anyone making any claim to understanding anything, given the limited capacity of the human mind. I rather take it all as provisional, having seen first-hand the futility of all claims to knowledge.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:09 am

I actually just found the audio book of Power of Now on Youtube and listened to maybe 10 minutes of it. I dont know if the intro is different from the book or if maybe I skipped the intro in the book, but I don't remember any of that. It sounded like... well, not good, really. :) I do recall being not overly impressed with what I did read, though, so maybe that's partially why... and I just forgot because it was forgettable. I won't link it because it's probably a blatant copyright violation, but for anyone who wants to give a listen, just search Youtube for Eckhart Tolle and you'll see the audiobook pop right up at the top of the list. It's 7 hours long and nobody seems to be claiming copyright violation, so maybe that's an example of Tolle's charity. ;)
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Lindama » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:10 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Lindama wrote:say, awakening is beyond it all

amazed that we judge those by one standard... another religous war, eh?

the only thing is value lies in those who receive it :namaste:



This strikes me as a really non-critical response Lindama, It is a basic tenet of any Buddhist system to always question and evaluate a teacher before committing to their stuff, for a set of really good reasons. Now, it's questionable how often people live up to that, but the impulse is a vital one for authentic spirituality, I think.
...


First, you need to know I am not defending Tolle, per se. In fact, I know little about him compared to the other non-traditional teachers coming through the Bay Area. I know too many in spite of my so-called serious zen practice and equally devoted part-time love for Tibetan practice. I'm not so fussy, a closet Tibetan coming out of the closet. :smile: I have not read Tolle's book cover to cover, listened to a whole talk on youtube, nothing. I have read enough about his take on the pain body that it resonates with me and seen endless quotes which open the heart and mind ... but I already knew that from my own experience! Again, I think he has something to offer to many people and who knows how they will evolve and find the tradition that is right for them if they are destined to go further ... he is a way shower. Not to mention the good that can be done in the world simply with open hearts.

I have already pointed out, as others have, that Tolle (and others) make teachings available to people who may not find them any other way... yada yada. I saw Adyashanti before he got big... it's not hard to see him as an old zen master who speaks from emptiness, after all he trained in zen. It was easier to see before he got big.... before people made him big... (btw, before Oprah made Tolle big, but he was acually already big for many). In my mind, it's no diff than the second ancestor who cut off his arm to prove how serious he was about wanting a teacher... many people are wanting more. My take is that Adya had to altar his teaching for the audience.... he used to speak more like a zen master without ever uttering a word of zen. The silence was stunning, and still is at times. Nowadays, people are at many stages of awakening and I at least see that he tries to include a wider audience. So, now, we are into a new arena... it's not so easy to discern what is awakening and what is skillful means to address the masses who are hungry for their own spiritual inheritance.

Do you know about all the awakened mystics in the US and elsewhere who never had but a few followers... it is happening a lot on the planet. The Buddha is hardly the only one. That's the beauty for me... there is someone for everyone.

So, to respond to your comments it maybe helpful to know where I am coming from. My first teacher was not buddhist. He always said, if he taught anything it was the transpersonal heart center, in fact it was much more, or not... what else is there? He taught us the tools we needed to connect with our natural being and what obscured living a full and spontaneous life. He warned us that the road to awakening was paved with dead bodies and tried to give us a map and understanding of the difficulties. He sent us home with tools for awareness of this.. there was no one on one. He was a Buddha in my eyes tho he never said so. As a matter of fact, today is the fourth anniversary of his death although I have not seen him in twenty years. He refused guru status and sent us home to explore our own lives and heart center in the transcendent. He never advertised, yet he claims he worked with over 30,000 people in his life. From the long view, I think this is pretty accurate. After a brief and wondrous exposure to Dzogchen, I settled on a local zen teacher for many years while secretly keeping up my Tibetan connection. Turns out, I never did fool the zennies who were my family for a long time. Little did they know, I tried to keep up my dzogchen meditation, tho that is questionable without guidance. I never did care... it's all in the living. And, mostly I preferred to cook at retreat. That is another kind of meditation. Eventually, thankfully, that fell apart.

Anyone outside of the Buddhist system falls outside of the Buddhist tenets. I suppose this is what rubs me the most. Tolle is not a Buddhist, how can we apply those standards to him? And, we have to understand that the relationship is different... it is rarely, if ever, one on one, it lacks the intimacy and vulnerability and the consequences ... the audience is wide and vast. Still, the experience can be felt as intimate, believe it or not. After all, there's nothing that is separate from us! If Buddhism comes to this, this relationship will have to change. How will Buddhism handles the masses? As it is, the Buddhist belief system says that the deepest training benefits and needs a close relationship... how can this be sustained. I know zen teachers who are burned out by the demand for one on one. but this is not what Tolle, Adyashanti and others are about. I once had a personal interview with Adyashanti on the one retreat that I went to in 2002... he told me what I already knew: "STOP". ok

So, the whole traditional thing about checking out teachers, asking if they are enlightened, etc. just is not in this paradigm. The need to evaluate is not there because the type of commitment, if at all, is not the same. As far as living up to the Buddhist standards, checking out the teacher.... do you really think that we can check it out ahead? We go into this with our eyes closed no matter how we think we are evaluating the teacher. If anything, we luck out according to our karma.... Thus, I think that the value needs to be seen according to how the person receives the teaching and how it benefits. We can't apply Buddhist standards as we know them ... we can't judge from our own realization either ...or how our teachers treated us.

Do you know how hungry the average person is??? The impulse is alive in many people these days.

so we keep on keep'n on

thanks for listening
:namaste:

ps... I have heard this ad nausea on the zen forum, it won't be resolved any time soon, unless it is. Maybe you will be the pioneers. :popcorn:
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Simon E. » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:52 am

It won't be Linda. This is a Buddhist website. It is to be expected that any posts on it will reflect that in general terms. Neither Tolle nor Adyashanti are Buddhist teachers. Neither are they neutral. They are teachers of something other than Buddhadharma.
Posts about that something other are not going to go unchallenged.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Simon E. » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:57 am

bob wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: I think though, that if we are going to discuss him it's a bit of a cop out to simply say that people should essentially mind their own business when someone makes claims like this, which seem to include mastery of the traditions this board discusses. I can take that kind of advice from my teacher, but this is a public message board, made for just that purpose.


Is he really claiming mastery, or just an understanding of the essence of those teachings? There is a big difference.



No, there really isn't.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:23 am

I watched that youtube once and it depends on interconnecting mind. Dependence on my conceptual mind-and its' things.

I heard that in the lights of own nature there is no buddhism/dzogchen/zen/mahamudra and maha this and Maha that or other at all. To see that, we follow (sorry for repeating this old cd) awaken nature, which is without labels. If there is a label focussed by own mind, there is the title of a story. To see that, we have buddha’s pointings, buddhism.

As we see other things, other than own nature, we classify in parts, category and levels and whatever.

I heard also that whatever appears is by own karma, the wrongs and the rights, these things, seen as other than own Mind. We learn so much to pay homage to passing thoughts which form opinions about this and that. I think this is called self-reliance or so. :smile:

What own mind percieves as Tolle, that Tolle is. Problem is in judgements the judge is not seen, and so not included in the judge’s stories. The judge is standing apart and from that place is Tolle-teaching-appearance seen and so gets its colors.

As I paint my view about him, I guess it is another than before since these views change.

Home-made art.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby Simon E. » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:26 pm

What ?
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Postby muni » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:55 pm

It depends on own mind, own being what is percieved, whether beneficial or not. That is easely forgotten.
His talks can be very helpful for fellows, that is what is important for me.
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