Akshobhya Pure Land end

Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:16 pm

zamotcr wrote:But the idea is what you said, but it is said that Buddhas won't die.


From an ultimate point of view, neither do we. But provisionally, we do get born and perish at death.

For the Buddha forms in their purelands, most are ascribed to their sambhogakaya aspects, which is a Buddha's rupakaya (form body), so by that analysis, they should manifest life and death.
When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path I promised a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern humans deny with words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, conditions they call peace. Even as they speak, they create seeds of turmoil and violence.

- Leto II, the God Emperor
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:18 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
zamotcr wrote:But the idea is what you said, but it is said that Buddhas won't die.


From an ultimate point of view, neither do we. But provisionally, we do get born and perish at death.

For the Buddha forms in their purelands, most are ascribed to their sambhogakaya aspects, which is a Buddha's rupakaya (form body), so by that analysis, they should manifest life and death.


Normally, in East Asia Buddhism, Sambhogakaya manifest life, but not death.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:21 pm

zamotcr wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
zamotcr wrote:But the idea is what you said, but it is said that Buddhas won't die.


From an ultimate point of view, neither do we. But provisionally, we do get born and perish at death.

For the Buddha forms in their purelands, most are ascribed to their sambhogakaya aspects, which is a Buddha's rupakaya (form body), so by that analysis, they should manifest life and death.


Normally, in East Asia Buddhism, Sambhogakaya manifest life, but not death.


Amitabha will manifest death when he enters parinirvana and hand over Sukhavati to Avalokiteshvara.
When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path I promised a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern humans deny with words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, conditions they call peace. Even as they speak, they create seeds of turmoil and violence.

- Leto II, the God Emperor
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:31 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Amitabha will manifest death when he enters parinirvana and hand over Sukhavati to Avalokiteshvara.


Yes, that what it is said. And here we will enter a debate of whether Amitabha is a Sambhogakaya or Nirmanakaya. According to Shantao, Amitabha's Paranirvana is just illusory, because otherwise he will break his vows.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:39 pm

zamotcr wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Amitabha will manifest death when he enters parinirvana and hand over Sukhavati to Avalokiteshvara.


Yes, that what it is said. And here we will enter a debate of whether Amitabha is a Sambhogakaya or Nirmanakaya. According to Shantao, Amitabha's Paranirvana is just illusory, because otherwise he will break his vows.


The usual debate is whether Amitabha is a Dharmakaya or Sambhogakaya. I think it is a Sambhogakaya.

In Mahayana, even a Nirmanakaya Buddha like Shakyamuni's manifestation of parinirvana is illusory - so that is a given.
When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path I promised a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern humans deny with words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, conditions they call peace. Even as they speak, they create seeds of turmoil and violence.

- Leto II, the God Emperor
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:44 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
zamotcr wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Amitabha will manifest death when he enters parinirvana and hand over Sukhavati to Avalokiteshvara.


Yes, that what it is said. And here we will enter a debate of whether Amitabha is a Sambhogakaya or Nirmanakaya. According to Shantao, Amitabha's Paranirvana is just illusory, because otherwise he will break his vows.


The usual debate is whether Amitabha is a Dharmakaya or Sambhogakaya. I think it is a Sambhogakaya.

In Mahayana, even a Nirmanakaya Buddha like Shakyamuni's manifestation of parinirvana is illusory - so that is a given.



In other posts I read otherwise. Every Buddha can be said to be a Dharmakaya, because Dharmakaya is the True Nature, there is no differenciation, no dualism, etc.
It is said that Nirmakaya is the illusory body that is manifested in Samsara, Sambhogakaya the Rewarding Body, and Dharmakaya the Buddhas Nature.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:04 pm

zamotcr wrote:In other posts I read otherwise. Every Buddha can be said to be a Dharmakaya, because Dharmakaya is the True Nature, there is no differenciation, no dualism, etc.
It is said that Nirmakaya is the illusory body that is manifested in Samsara, Sambhogakaya the Rewarding Body, and Dharmakaya the Buddhas Nature.


All Buddhas possess the three/four bodies. The Nirmanakaya is indeed the transformation body that a Buddha manifest in Samsara. For sublime realms like the celestial purelands, it is usually the Sambhogakaya aspect. Sometimes you see the Buddhas of purelands described as the Dharmakaya (eg. Vairocana). As far as I am aware, debates on Amitabha's form usually centers around whether we are talking about his Sambhogakaya or Dharmakaya aspect.
When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path I promised a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern humans deny with words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, conditions they call peace. Even as they speak, they create seeds of turmoil and violence.

- Leto II, the God Emperor
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby thunderbumble » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:55 pm

zamotcr wrote:In Mahayana, Pure Land are usually depicted as a Reward Land. Each Buddha, after his enlightenment, create his own Pure Land according to their merits.
In the Trikaya theory, the Enjoyment Body has a beginning, but not an end. Following this logic, an Enjoyment Land, which is Pure in nature, a Realm of the Buddhas, will never decay or become in Impure, because it is created by each Buddha merit and mind.

Different Masters explains this Enjoyment Lands as outside Samsara and Triple Realm, even when Sutras describes the Pure Lands as "earthly" worlds, with beginning and with an end.

The Akshobhya Sutra, explain how will be Decline of the True Dharma in his Pure Land with the following words:

A Treasury of Mahāyāna Sūtras: Selections from the Mahāratnakūta Sūtra pag. 332 wrote:"Sariputra, after the extinction of the true Dharma, there will be a great light illuminating all the worlds in the ten directions, and all the earths will quake, making a great sound. However, [you should know that] the true Dharma cannot be destroyed by the celestial demons, nor will the Tathagata and his disciples pass into oblivion of their own accord. [b]It is because people of that time will lack interest in learning the Dharma that those who can expound the Dharma will go away form them. Hearing little of the true Dharma, the people will become more incredulous, and as a result, they will not strive to practice the Dharma. Seeing the indifference of the people, monks well-versed in the Dharma will naturally withdraw into seclusion and preach the Dharma no more. In this way, the subtle, profound teaching of the Buddha will gradually disappear.[/b]"


Reading this fragment, if the Pure Lands like Amitabha, Medicine Buddha and Akshobhya were described as Outside Samsara and beyond Triple Realm, described as Enjoyment Lands, without death, how can be that the Dharma will decline in such lands? How can it be possible? We are talking about a Buddha Land, a Pure Land created by merits, how can beings there loose faith and contribute to a Dharma end? I can believe in this land a Dharma end is possible, but it's difficult to think in a Pure Land declining.

In the Lotus Sutra it is the same, different Pure Lands are described in this way, with a Dharma ending age.[/quote

In order to understand the old descriptions of pure lands, we must, because we are modern minded humans, put them into a relative framework.
If not, then we can also believe Zeus lives on Mt. Olympus?
Humans have two eyes and cannot see the 4th dimension of infinite space time. If we could see an objects ,"front, back, top, bottom, sides, and insides and all points of references" simultaneously, we'd be in the 4thD. https://www.khanacademy.org/science/cos ... observable
If there was some conscious essence after our physical death, because of the expansion in the 4th dimension this energy would soon be stretched out. It would lose coherence in the vastness of infinite space time.
Energy is finite. This earth is finite. One day all life on this planet will be dead. No one to read or understand
The Dharma. However, the truth of the Dharma is infinite. Therefore it is endless in it's merit.

How could the average person one thousand years ago
Comprehend this?
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby thunderbumble » Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:33 pm

We need to think big. Mahayana means, Big
Vehicle.
Could Buddhism exist with other sentient life forms in other galaxies with different sutras?
Silly conjecture?
I'm this sense the Dharma has no end.
Up is not really up. It is out and away.
Down is closer the heart.
To find Dharmakaya and the Way to the Pureland is in, not out.
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:18 pm

I was thinking again in this Pure Land.

"Sariputra, after the extinction of the true Dharma, there will be a great light illuminating all the worlds in the ten directions, and all the earths will quake, making a great sound. However, [you should know that] the true Dharma cannot be destroyed by the celestial demons, nor will the Tathagata and his disciples pass into oblivion of their own accord. It is because people of that time will lack interest in learning the Dharma that those who can expound the Dharma will go away form them. Hearing little of the true Dharma, the people will become more incredulous, and as a result, they will not strive to practice the Dharma. Seeing the indifference of the people, monks well-versed in the Dharma will naturally withdraw into seclusion and preach the Dharma no more. In this way, the subtle, profound teaching of the Buddha will gradually disappear."


Seems like this Buddha-Field is modeled or based in our Saha world. In Abhirathi there are monks there (therefore humans)!

For example, I can't imagine Sukhavati with a "Dharma Ending Age" or with people there that won't listen to Dharma.

If in Abhirathi such thing will happen (people without interest in hearing the Dharma there), then, how such people did reborn there in the first place? I mean, if they are not interested, why did they reborn there? That Buddha-Land sounds more like a Nirmanakaya-Land, like our Saha world, but with pure environment, with ceasing and arising and not a Reward Land like Sukhavati.

What do you think?
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby Asbestos Buddha » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:09 am

In the last days, when because of greed, delusion, and lust, the earth is polluted and the sun is old and dying?
There is really no "now moment". It's a continuity like seeing "." in an infinite line.
How can the Dharma fade away in the infinte? There are other worlds with other Buddhas.
The present moment has been, is, and always will be.
It is the stream and there is no end.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby LastLegend » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:34 am

The only way to know is to go there yourself.
NAMO AMITABHA
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NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:11 am

It is interesting to me that at one time practices aimed at rebirth in Tushita were popular.

My understanding was always that Tushita is harder to get to because a very high level of ethics ia one of the prerequisites.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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