what the difference between shan tao and honen teaching ?

what the difference between shan tao and honen teaching ?

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:16 pm

Hello Dharma Friends

I know Honen teaching Agree with Shan tao teaching About reborn in pure land by the saying of Amida name Alone .

And I know one Difference .
Shan tao teaching teach to say Amida name All the time .
Honen teaching teach to say Amida name a few time able you to be born to pure land .

And I want know more about the Similarity and the difference between their teaching ?
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Re: what the difference between shan tao and honen teaching

Postby PorkChop » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:31 pm

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Hello Dharma Friends

I know Honen teaching Agree with Shan tao teaching About reborn in pure land by the saying of Amida name Alone .

And I know one Difference .
Shan tao teaching teach to say Amida name All the time .
Honen teaching teach to say Amida name a few time able you to be born to pure land .

And I want know more about the Similarity and the difference between their teaching ?


That's a drastic over-simplification of what Honen said about single practice verses many calling... In fact, I think you've got Honen mixed up with Shinran here, and even for Shinran, that's a huge oversimplification (which I addressed in an earlier thread).
Here's Honen's side of things:
Honen's Instructions wrote:Honen once said, "It’s important that you should never forget the repetition of the nembutsu. Keep it in mind continually. Even though you do impure things or speak impure words, it is a fine thing to keep your heart pure and to say the nembutsu over and over again without stopping it even for a moment. If you go on repeating it at all times and under all circumstances, it will finally bring you to ojo - no doubt about it. Surely don’t imagine that it would be all right to put off the practice of the nembutsu on the grounds that it can be done at any time. On the contrary, don’t let a single moment pass in which you are not practicing it.”
-----------------------
Q: How many repetitions of the nembutsu should one regard as a day's practice?
Honen: Well, the number of nembutsu repetitions may begin with ten thousand, and then go on to twenty, thirty, fifty, sixty or even a hundred thousand. Everyone should in their own heart and according to their own will determine the number within these limits.

Q: Even if we don’t fix the number of times for repeating the nembutsu as our daily practice, isn’t it OK to do it as often as one can?

H: It’s better to fix the number, otherwise you might get lazy.
-----------------------
"Concerning the million repetitions, this is not mentioned in the Original Vow. But it is said in the Amida Sutra that a person who repeats the nembutsu for one, two, or seven days will be Born in the Pure Land, and so we should repeat it continually for seven days. Now many scholars think that the seven days mean a period in which the nembutsu should be repeated a million times and that this should be done within seven days. But even if a person can’t complete the number in seven days, they may take eight or nine days for it. And yet, if there are those who can’t do it a million times, that doesn’t mean that such people can’t be Born in the Pure Land. By ten repetitions or even one a person can be Born. The joy of the thought that one can be Born in the Pure Land by ten repetitions or even one stimulates us to pile up the merit of a million repetitions....”

"......If a person says he or she can be Born in the Pure Land by ten repetitions of the nembutsu, or even one, and then begins to get careless about practice, their faith will hinder their practice. On the other hand, if a person says, as Shan-tao did, that he or she unceasingly repeats the nembutsu, but in their heart has doubts about the certainty of ojo, then their practice will hinder his faith. So then, believe that you can attain ojo by one repetition, and yet go on practicing it your whole life long. If you think there is uncertainty as to the power of calling upon the nembutsu once, then it means that there is doubt about it every time you call upon the sacred name. Amida Buddha's Vow was to give Birth in the Pure Land to those who call upon his name even once, and so there is power in every repetition of the sacred name."


Honen rebuking single-calling:
Honen's response wrote:“I think I understand the meaning of your letter. I can see from the attached note the present state of your faith, and I am really pleased that it’s not in any way different from my own. It is being said these days that it is totally useless to repeat the nembutsu many times and that once is enough. But this subject is barely worth discussing. Has the person who says such things - and in saying so is a long way off from the sutras and the commentaries - has he himself already attained enlightenment? This is surely very doubtful. Moreover, it is said that for the person who believes in the Original Vow, it doesn’t matter at all whether one breaks the precepts or not. This also doesn’t deserve any answer. Something like this can be found nowhere except in heretical Buddhism. Aren’t those who talk such nonsense in these days basically devils, making a sham of the nembutsu? This is all I can say on the subject at present."


Here's a link on ShanTao's influence on Honen:
http://www.jsri.jp/English/Honen/TEACHINGS/zendo.html
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Re: what the difference between shan tao and honen teaching

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:51 pm

Thank you for your reply

I take my idea about ( to say Amida name a few time ) for jodo website .

" After selecting the nembutsu as one's central practice, there still remains a danger of approaching nembutsu practice in the improper way. According to Honen, one is mistaken in believing that it is the number of recitations of the nembutsu that counts towards salvation. This is the sort of self power approach inappropriate for bonpu in this defiled age. Honen insisted instead that, even with a small number of recitations, it is the strength of one's conviction in reciting the nembutsu that is most vital. Even with a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand or even a million recitations, it is not the impressive number but the earnestness with which one supplicates to Amida Buddha for guidance. This is true other power which leads the practitioner to the establishment of a faith firm enough to assure birth in the Pure Land. "
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Re: what the difference between shan tao and honen teaching

Postby PorkChop » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:58 pm

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Thank you for your reply

I take my idea about ( to say Amida name a few time ) for jodo website .

" After selecting the nembutsu as one's central practice, there still remains a danger of approaching nembutsu practice in the improper way. According to Honen, one is mistaken in believing that it is the number of recitations of the nembutsu that counts towards salvation. This is the sort of self power approach inappropriate for bonpu in this defiled age. Honen insisted instead that, even with a small number of recitations, it is the strength of one's conviction in reciting the nembutsu that is most vital. Even with a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand or even a million recitations, it is not the impressive number but the earnestness with which one supplicates to Amida Buddha for guidance. This is true other power which leads the practitioner to the establishment of a faith firm enough to assure birth in the Pure Land. "


Ah, yeah I can see how that's confusing... Basically what he is saying there is "quality (sincerity) over quantity"... not "just do a little and you'll be fine".
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Re: what the difference between shan tao and honen teaching

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:10 pm

PorkChop wrote:
Arabic Buddhist wrote:Thank you for your reply

I take my idea about ( to say Amida name a few time ) for jodo website .

" After selecting the nembutsu as one's central practice, there still remains a danger of approaching nembutsu practice in the improper way. According to Honen, one is mistaken in believing that it is the number of recitations of the nembutsu that counts towards salvation. This is the sort of self power approach inappropriate for bonpu in this defiled age. Honen insisted instead that, even with a small number of recitations, it is the strength of one's conviction in reciting the nembutsu that is most vital. Even with a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand or even a million recitations, it is not the impressive number but the earnestness with which one supplicates to Amida Buddha for guidance. This is true other power which leads the practitioner to the establishment of a faith firm enough to assure birth in the Pure Land. "


Ah, yeah I can see how that's confusing... Basically what he is saying there is "quality (sincerity) over quantity"... not "just do a little and you'll be fine".


Now I understand . Thank you very much .

Do you know website in english about Shan tao teaching ?

I have many website about honen teaching . But I don't find website about shan tao ?
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Re: what the difference between shan tao and honen teaching

Postby PorkChop » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:26 pm

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Now I understand . Thank you very much .

Do you know website in english about Shan tao teaching ?

I have many website about honen teaching . But I don't find website about shan tao ?


Not exactly a website, but maybe this helps?
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wjv85t ... &q&f=false
I have this book but haven't read it yet.

EDIT: note, this book has been described to me as highly polemical against Jodo Shin Shu and apparently makes some incorrect statements about Shin Shu doctrine - so just ignore what it has to say about Japanese Buddhism.
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Re: what the difference between shan tao and honen teaching

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:32 pm

PorkChop wrote:
Arabic Buddhist wrote:Now I understand . Thank you very much .

Do you know website in english about Shan tao teaching ?

I have many website about honen teaching . But I don't find website about shan tao ?


Not exactly a website, but maybe this helps?
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wjv85t ... &q&f=false
I have this book but haven't read it yet.

EDIT: note, this book has been described to me as highly polemical against Jodo Shin Shu and apparently makes some incorrect statements about Shin Shu doctrine - so just ignore what it has to say about Japanese Buddhism.


Thank you very much dear friend .
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