Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Postby steveb1 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:06 am

Visiting various Buddhist sites I've come across the concept of Adi-Buddha, or Samantabhadra - the Primordial Buddha, who is said to have a creator-like function.

Can anyone inform me if Shin/Jodo Shinshu accepts the existence of the Primordial Buddha, and if so, does Amida Buddha have any particular relationship to, or interaction with, the Adi-Buddha?

Thanks in advance for any information :)
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Re: Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Postby sinweiy » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:18 pm

i see it was a form of Dharmakaya or "Buddha-body of reality" or Dharma Body. All Buddhas have the Three Kayas/bodies.
Three kayas: the dharmakaya, or absolute body; the sambhogakaya, or body of divine enjoyment; and the nirmanakaya, or manifested body. These correspond to the mind, speech, and body of an enlightened Buddha.
As Amitabha is an Emanation body; the corresponding Enjoyment body is Amitayus, "infinite life"-propitiated for longevity; the Dharma body is known as Ananta-prabha, "boundless illumination."
how to you understand Dharmakaya? to me Ananta-prabha is the same as "Adi-Buddha".
_/\_
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Re: Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Postby Icchantika » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:00 pm

steveb1 wrote:Visiting various Buddhist sites I've come across the concept of Adi-Buddha, or Samantabhadra - the Primordial Buddha, who is said to have a creator-like function.

Can anyone inform me if Shin/Jodo Shinshu accepts the existence of the Primordial Buddha, and if so, does Amida Buddha have any particular relationship to, or interaction with, the Adi-Buddha?

Thanks in advance for any information :)


That's Shingon, esoteric teaching. There's no need to concern yourself with it as a Shin person.
In my understanding Shakyamuni Buddha was the nirmanakaya, Amida the sambhogakaya, and the Dharmakaya is the formless, nameless absolute
The Dharmakaya is the last word, there's no "beyond" it, not even Adi-Buddha. the Dharmakaya or suchness is where all names cease
I don't know about Adi-Buddha teaching, but if it has creator capabilities, then this is not Buddhism anymore.
A creator god was never affirmed by the historical Buddha.
And even if there is a creator, absolute God, we should ask the question Shakyamuni asked:
how does it help us? how does it help us with suffering knowing there is such an Entity? Not much, I think
Amida's Primal Vow helps
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Re: Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Postby Yudron » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:19 pm

sinweiy wrote:i see it was a form of Dharmakaya or "Buddha-body of reality" or Dharma Body. All Buddhas have the Three Kayas/bodies.
Three kayas: the dharmakaya, or absolute body; the sambhogakaya, or body of divine enjoyment; and the nirmanakaya, or manifested body. These correspond to the mind, speech, and body of an enlightened Buddha.
As Amitabha is an Emanation body; the corresponding Enjoyment body is Amitayus, "infinite life"-propitiated for longevity; the Dharma body is known as Ananta-prabha, "boundless illumination."
how to you understand Dharmakaya? to me Ananta-prabha is the same as "Adi-Buddha".


In the Nyingma tradition, I've personally never seen Amitabha is depicted as an "emanation body" Nirmanakaya, but quite often as the pema family Dharmakaya buddha. Occasionally, a Sambogakaya yab yum form will appear in sadhanas or thankas with Samantabhadra occupying the Dharmakaya position... but this is the exception, rather than the rule in our tradition to my understanding.

Sorry :offtopic:
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Re: Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Postby steveb1 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:04 pm

Just a brief thanks to everyone for replying to my question :)
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Re: Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Postby sinweiy » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:20 pm

Yudron wrote:In the Nyingma tradition, I've personally never seen Amitabha is depicted as an "emanation body" Nirmanakaya, but quite often as the pema family Dharmakaya buddha. Occasionally, a Sambogakaya yab yum form will appear in sadhanas or thankas with Samantabhadra occupying the Dharmakaya position... but this is the exception, rather than the rule in our tradition to my understanding.



i see. it's just names. i cite Amitabha Sutra
Moreover, Shariputra, the lifespan of that Buddha and that of his people extends for measureless, limitless asamkhyeyas of kalpas. For this reason he is called Amitayus. And, Shariputra, since Amitabha became a Buddha, ten kalpas have passed. --Amitabha Sutra

here, two different names are use. Amitayus and Amitabha. Amitayus is without end, but a start, hence a Sambogakaya. Amitabha became Buddha ten kalpas ago and will have a "lifespan" of measureless, limitless asamkhyeyas of kalpas, hence an Nirmanakaya. Nirmanakaya has a start and an end to it.

all Buddhas have the three kayas. just different in naming. if one see it as Dharmakaya, then Amitabha is Anantaprabha. Amitabha is Dharmakaya. Dharmakaya is without start nor an end to it.
_/\_
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"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Postby sinweiy » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:41 am

In the Mahayana Uttara Tantra Shastra (translated as 'The Changeless Nature'), it is explained that even though there is only one moon in the sky, it is reflected many times in pools and oceans, in clear or dirty water. Just like that example, Amitabha's activity permeates everywhere. The dharmakaya appears everywhere, dependent on the clarity of one's mind. If the water is agitated, the moon will still reflect in it, but unclearly. It is the same with one's mind: if the mind is agitated, the dharmakaya is not clearly revealed. That concludes the praise and homage to the dharmakaya.


Amitabha's speech is called Vajra Speech as it is unceasing. In terms of the quality of his speech, it is unequalled even by the sound of thunder, and also it is very beautiful, like melodious song or music. When the Buddha teaches, to those nearby his speech does not sound loud, but pleasant and clear, yet those listening far away can also hear it clearly. If one is listening to Amitabha's speech, it never sounds unpleasant, and it possesses 60 special qualities unmatched by melodious song. Rinpoché thinks that this is why the 2 examples, of his voice being unmatched by thunder and melodious song, are given in the sadhana. Out of compassion for all beings, Amitabha continually gives Dharma teachings. That is the praise and homage to the sambhogakaya.


There follows a praise to Amitabha's Vajra Mind, which is endowed with the 2 qualities of knowing the nature of things just as they are, and the many things that are to be known. It is a mind that cares for the welfare of all beings continually with great compassion and impartiality. Even though Brahma is a lord of a thousand million worlds, and Indra is powerful and has great merit, their minds cannot equal the mind of a buddha. One pays homage to Amitabha's mind, residing in a nirmanakaya form. In the text, it describes Amitabha as nirmanakaya, sambhogakaya or dharmakaya. These 3 are simply different aspects of forms. Each kaya has 3 different facets. For example, the dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Buddha Samantabhadra; the sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara; the nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 5 lords of the buddha-families. So, Amitabha, as head of the Lotus family, is classified here as nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara; the sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso; the nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha. The dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha; the sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig; the nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche. So, here, Amitabha is the dharmakaya.

http://www.purifymind.com/Amitabha.html
_/\_
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"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: Shin: Amida and Primordial Buddha ?

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:48 am

One Enlightenment.

The Buddhas have all 3 bodies,if one is a Buddha then one has the Dharmakaya Body.
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