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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:22 pm 
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the Pure Land is created inside the Mind of a Buddha.
which is why the Sutra say it is "like" Nirvana.

since Enlightenment is outside of Samsara,that is why it is said that the Pure Land is not one of the 5/6 transmigations of Samsara

when the sutras say we should try to create our own Pureland it is done is done entirely inside our own minds (we cannot create a physical world)
when we become Enlightened our Pure-land comes into "existance" hence Pure-Land,Pure-Mind.

When we go to the Pure-land our spirit/consciousness/transient self goes to the Pure Mind of Amitabha Buddha
imagine freddy cruger with a positive story line. :mrgreen:

Peace and Love


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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Just as buddhas and bodhisattvas have forms (not necessarily flesh ones) so do Pure Lands. The entire range of a Pure Land like Amita Buddha's can only be known by very high bodhisattvas or buddhas. Yet devotees of Amita can contact lower parts of that Pure Realm here on this planet.

See this devotee's experience: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=13719

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Last edited by Will on Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:34 pm 
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Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "who said that [the Pure Land] is in our same human level of perception?" If Amida is truly a transcendent "Being", a real Buddha existing in a real "Buddha state", then Amida and the "land" in which Amida "dwells" must by nature surpass human understanding, especially the limited, ego-bound, samsaric, "bombu-type" of understanding out of which unenlightened beings operate. Good point, nicely phrased :)


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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:11 am 
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Son of Buddha wrote:
since Enlightenment is outside of Samsara,that is why it is said that the Pure Land is not one of the 5/6 transmigations of Samsara

when the sutras say we should try to create our own Pureland it is done is done entirely inside our own minds (we cannot create a physical world)
when we become Enlightened our Pure-land comes into "existance" hence Pure-Land,Pure-Mind.

When we go to the Pure-land our spirit/consciousness/transient self goes to the Pure Mind of Amitabha Buddha
imagine freddy cruger with a positive story line. :mrgreen:

Peace and Love
You are contradicting yourself: first you say that Enlightenment lies outside of samsara then you say our transient self (samsara) goes to the Pure Mind (enlightened mind) of Amitabha. Then you say that our Pureland is created in our (samsaric) mind. :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:57 pm 
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zamotcr wrote:
Well, I was thinking around this. Yeah, this doubt still bother me some times :shrug:

But, I found my error. Taking sutras literally is a wrong way to go. I read the sutras and the commentaries and you will find a lot of differences and contradictions. Some Masters will tell you that Pure Land is a far far away planet, others will tell you that is a symbol to Nirvana, other say both. And if you read the sutras, you get a different impression too.


I just want to clear something up. The generally accepted standpoint of East Asian Mahayana schools is that the first chapter of the "Description of the Pure Land" section of the Amitabha sutra; the part that describes the various adornments of the Pure Land, refers to the 37 attributes of Enlightenment (37 attributes of an Enlightened Mind). This is consistent across all major traditions of East Asia (China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam). In China, it's part of the dedication of merit prayer "May the merit and virtue of this chanting adorn Amitabha's Pure Land". In Japan, Shinran quotes Tanluan in saying that Amitabha & the Pure Land are Dharmakaya as skillful means (upaya) and compassion, and states (roughly) "the Pure Land is the realm of Enlightenment". Anyone grounded in the major doctrines of Mahayana does not see the Pure Land Sutras and the Vimalakirti Sutra (which says one's own perceptions dictate whether or not the land is pure or not) at odds. The only discussion is whether or not capacities dictate this realization while in this life or not, whether it is worthwhile for those of low capacities to make a goal of coming to this realization in this life (though "Ojo" or assurance of one's Pure Land birth is something that is widely accepted as possible). If you think you're finding a contradiction, please look again. What may be happening is a warning about thinking the Pure Land is just something that can be imagined arbitrarily, something that's "just in your head", because even those that favor a "Mind Only Pure Land" admonish that thinking in such a way causes a duality between mind and object. In order to prevent followers from sliding into such a duality, to prevent followers from sliding into some substantialist form of metaphysical solipsism, or to prevent simple-minded followers from getting confused, many masters will encourage the view of the Pure Land as a physical place, but in reality there is no distinction when you dig far enough into the doctrines encouraged by the various schools.


Last edited by PorkChop on Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:09 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
since Enlightenment is outside of Samsara,that is why it is said that the Pure Land is not one of the 5/6 transmigations of Samsara

when the sutras say we should try to create our own Pureland it is done is done entirely inside our own minds (we cannot create a physical world)
when we become Enlightened our Pure-land comes into "existance" hence Pure-Land,Pure-Mind.

When we go to the Pure-land our spirit/consciousness/transient self goes to the Pure Mind of Amitabha Buddha
imagine freddy cruger with a positive story line. :mrgreen:

Peace and Love
You are contradicting yourself: first you say that Enlightenment lies outside of samsara then you say our transient self (samsara) goes to the Pure Mind (enlightened mind) of Amitabha. Then you say that our Pureland is created in our (samsaric) mind. :shrug:


I think it's more a matter of his word choices as coming off a little clumsy. The state of Enlightenment transcends (goes beyond) Samsara (cyclic existence caused by a mind clinging to the 3 poisons), hence the idea that it exists "outside of" the mind driven by the 3 poisons. By "create our own Pureland it is done entirely inside our own minds" he's referring the act of transforming a mind driven by the 3 poisons into one that is not, when the mind is pure the land is pure. The part about "goes to the Pure Mind of Amitabha Buddha" is a transformational "go to", not positional.


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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:34 pm 
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Quote:
...when the mind is pure the land is pure
Which mind? The Pure Mind (sic) or mind?

See, it still doesn't really make sense, especially from a Madhyamaka view.

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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:08 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
Quote:
...when the mind is pure the land is pure
Which mind? The Pure Mind (sic) or mind?
See, it still doesn't really make sense, especially from a Madhyamaka view.


Sounds like you're reifying the Pure Mind tbh.
A mind freed from obscurations can see that the land was pure all along (as both are emtpy).


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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:11 pm 
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PorkChop wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Quote:
...when the mind is pure the land is pure
Which mind? The Pure Mind (sic) or mind?
See, it still doesn't really make sense, especially from a Madhyamaka view.


Sounds like you're reifying the Pure Mind tbh.
A mind freed from obscurations can see that the land was pure all along (as both are empty).


Late EDIT: read through these posts a few times to see where the confusion is. It's referring to before and after state, not 2 minds. The first state riddled with obscurations, the second state perceives emptiness.


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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:06 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
since Enlightenment is outside of Samsara,that is why it is said that the Pure Land is not one of the 5/6 transmigations of Samsara

when the sutras say we should try to create our own Pureland it is done is done entirely inside our own minds (we cannot create a physical world)
when we become Enlightened our Pure-land comes into "existance" hence Pure-Land,Pure-Mind.

When we go to the Pure-land our spirit/consciousness/transient self goes to the Pure Mind of Amitabha Buddha
imagine freddy cruger with a positive story line. :mrgreen:

Peace and Love
You are contradicting yourself: first you say that Enlightenment lies outside of samsara then you say our transient self (samsara) goes to the Pure Mind (enlightened mind) of Amitabha. Then you say that our Pureland is created in our (samsaric) mind. :shrug:


pretty much what Pork Chop said.

I will clarify more on what I meant if that helps though

Quote:
first you say that Enlightenment lies outside of samsara

Yes Enlightenment is itself Pure it has never been anything other than Enlightenment so it is not samsaric.
the Buddha Nature(Dharmakaya) is not Samsara but it does co exist inside Samsara to Enlighten living beings

“All such meanings of the letters well enable beings to purify their verbal actions. The Buddha-Nature of beings does not first become pure when assisted by letters. Why not? Because that nature is originally pure. Also, while co-existing with the five skandhas, the 18 realms and the 12 spheres [of the senses], the Buddha-Nature is not one with the five skandhas, the 18 realms and the 12 spheres. Because of this, all beings should take refuge in the Bodhisattvas and others. Because of the [existence of the] Buddha-Nature [within them], beings are viewed with equal [non-discriminating] eyes, and there is no difference. Hence, the half-letters form the basis of all sutras, all written material, and sentences.

Quote:
then you say our transient self (samsara) goes to the Pure Mind (enlightened mind) of Amitabha.

why yes
while Enlightenment is not Samsara it co-exists and intergrates samsaric beings. this is why samsaric beings can be reborn into the Pure Land to attain Enlightenment,
these beings who go to the Pure-land however still do have very subtle samsaric traces which is why they still need to practice in the Pure-Land until they attain Enlightenment there, they are not already reborn into the Pure Land Enlightened.
if they did not have any subtle Samsaric traces then there would be no need for them to practice in the Pure land until they attain Enlightenment,these beings would be reborn into the pure-land already Enlightened if they had zero samsaric traces.
(note that the land itself is perfect and you are essentially reborn as a 10th level Bodhisattva that is ready to attain Enlightenment)

this passage from the larger sutra shows "what" is reborn
"Thus, through the natural working of karma, they undergo immeasurable suffering in the three evil realms. In successive transmigrations they are reborn into different forms; their life-spans are sometimes long and sometimes short. Their transient selves, vital energy and consciousness transmigrate through the natural working of karma.

Quote:
Then you say that our Pureland is created in our (samsaric) mind. :shrug:

when the mental obscurations that cloud the Buddha nature are removed a little bit of the Pure Land is created every time,when all obscurations are removed and only Enlightenment remains then the creation of the Pure land will be complete.

peace and love

pork chop is probably more knowledgeable on the subject so just listen to him.


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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:51 am 
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PorkChop wrote:
Sounds like you're reifying the Pure Mind tbh.
A mind freed from obscurations can see that the land was pure all along (as both are empty).

Late EDIT: read through these posts a few times to see where the confusion is. It's referring to before and after state, not 2 minds. The first state riddled with obscurations, the second state perceives emptiness.
Is it the Pure Mind that is obscured, or the samsaric mind that is purified?

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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:46 am 
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Son of Buddha wrote:
Yes Enlightenment is itself Pure it has never been anything other than Enlightenment so it is not samsaric.
the Buddha Nature(Dharmakaya) is not Samsara but it does co exist inside Samsara to Enlighten living beings
This is a strange interpretation, everything I have ever read maintains that samsara is the display of the Dharmakaya.

If Buddha Nature is pure from the beginning, and Buddha Nature is my true nature, then I am pure from the beginning. So what is purified? If you say samsaric mind then you are saying that samsaric existence is my true nature, right now, and my Buddha Nature is seperate to me.

Using pretty colours in unreferenced misquotations does not solve the contradiction.
Quote:
why yes
while Enlightenment is not Samsara it co-exists and intergrates samsaric beings. this is why samsaric beings can be reborn into the Pure Land to attain Enlightenment
So we are enlightened and ignorant simultaneously? :shrug:
Quote:
when the mental obscurations that cloud the Buddha nature are removed a little bit of the Pure Land is created every time,when all obscurations are removed and only Enlightenment remains then the creation of the Pure land will be complete.
So you are saying that the Pureland (enlightened mind) and samsara (deluded mind) are actually one and the same.

Congratulations, your view includes all of the four extremes: distinct, same, distinct and same, neither distinct nor the same. :thumbsup:

Good luck with that one!

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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:12 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
PorkChop wrote:
Sounds like you're reifying the Pure Mind tbh.
A mind freed from obscurations can see that the land was pure all along (as both are empty).

Late EDIT: read through these posts a few times to see where the confusion is. It's referring to before and after state, not 2 minds. The first state riddled with obscurations, the second state perceives emptiness.
Is it the Pure Mind that is obscured, or the samsaric mind that is purified?


Purified as a verb can be applied the before state as well as the after state (ie. "purified the bilge water" can roughly equate to "purified the water of bilge").
The samsaric mind is imputed by its delusion, greed, and anger.
When those are gone, "samsaric mind" no longer applies.
This, he calls "Pure Mind" (again, not a fan of the caps).
To describe the process of starting with a samsaric mind and then the dropping off of delusion, he uses the phrase "goes to the Pure Mind of Amitabha".
By saying this is "outside of Samsara", that means not subject to the delusion caused by the 3 poisons and the 8 worldly dharmas.


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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:47 pm 
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You his lawyer, or do you have shares in his venture? :smile:

I'll get back to you soon!

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 Post subject: Re: Pure Land location
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
You his lawyer, or do you have shares in his venture? :smile:

I'll get back to you soon!


LOL
What attracted me to Pure Land in the first place was the hope to avoid such complicated philosophical debates & logomachy (had to look that last one up ;) ). I responded because your post was kind of a koan for me, kind of a "what did your original face look like before you were born?", and I also wanted to defend my earlier comment that maybe there's a misunderstanding based on the choice of words. Definitely not his lawyer - or at least he's not paying me enough to debate that last post. :D


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