Akshobhya Pure Land end

Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:16 pm

zamotcr wrote:But the idea is what you said, but it is said that Buddhas won't die.


From an ultimate point of view, neither do we. But provisionally, we do get born and perish at death.

For the Buddha forms in their purelands, most are ascribed to their sambhogakaya aspects, which is a Buddha's rupakaya (form body), so by that analysis, they should manifest life and death.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:18 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
zamotcr wrote:But the idea is what you said, but it is said that Buddhas won't die.


From an ultimate point of view, neither do we. But provisionally, we do get born and perish at death.

For the Buddha forms in their purelands, most are ascribed to their sambhogakaya aspects, which is a Buddha's rupakaya (form body), so by that analysis, they should manifest life and death.


Normally, in East Asia Buddhism, Sambhogakaya manifest life, but not death.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:21 pm

zamotcr wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
zamotcr wrote:But the idea is what you said, but it is said that Buddhas won't die.


From an ultimate point of view, neither do we. But provisionally, we do get born and perish at death.

For the Buddha forms in their purelands, most are ascribed to their sambhogakaya aspects, which is a Buddha's rupakaya (form body), so by that analysis, they should manifest life and death.


Normally, in East Asia Buddhism, Sambhogakaya manifest life, but not death.


Amitabha will manifest death when he enters parinirvana and hand over Sukhavati to Avalokiteshvara.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:31 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Amitabha will manifest death when he enters parinirvana and hand over Sukhavati to Avalokiteshvara.


Yes, that what it is said. And here we will enter a debate of whether Amitabha is a Sambhogakaya or Nirmanakaya. According to Shantao, Amitabha's Paranirvana is just illusory, because otherwise he will break his vows.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:39 pm

zamotcr wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Amitabha will manifest death when he enters parinirvana and hand over Sukhavati to Avalokiteshvara.


Yes, that what it is said. And here we will enter a debate of whether Amitabha is a Sambhogakaya or Nirmanakaya. According to Shantao, Amitabha's Paranirvana is just illusory, because otherwise he will break his vows.


The usual debate is whether Amitabha is a Dharmakaya or Sambhogakaya. I think it is a Sambhogakaya.

In Mahayana, even a Nirmanakaya Buddha like Shakyamuni's manifestation of parinirvana is illusory - so that is a given.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:44 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
zamotcr wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Amitabha will manifest death when he enters parinirvana and hand over Sukhavati to Avalokiteshvara.


Yes, that what it is said. And here we will enter a debate of whether Amitabha is a Sambhogakaya or Nirmanakaya. According to Shantao, Amitabha's Paranirvana is just illusory, because otherwise he will break his vows.


The usual debate is whether Amitabha is a Dharmakaya or Sambhogakaya. I think it is a Sambhogakaya.

In Mahayana, even a Nirmanakaya Buddha like Shakyamuni's manifestation of parinirvana is illusory - so that is a given.



In other posts I read otherwise. Every Buddha can be said to be a Dharmakaya, because Dharmakaya is the True Nature, there is no differenciation, no dualism, etc.
It is said that Nirmakaya is the illusory body that is manifested in Samsara, Sambhogakaya the Rewarding Body, and Dharmakaya the Buddhas Nature.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:04 pm

zamotcr wrote:In other posts I read otherwise. Every Buddha can be said to be a Dharmakaya, because Dharmakaya is the True Nature, there is no differenciation, no dualism, etc.
It is said that Nirmakaya is the illusory body that is manifested in Samsara, Sambhogakaya the Rewarding Body, and Dharmakaya the Buddhas Nature.


All Buddhas possess the three/four bodies. The Nirmanakaya is indeed the transformation body that a Buddha manifest in Samsara. For sublime realms like the celestial purelands, it is usually the Sambhogakaya aspect. Sometimes you see the Buddhas of purelands described as the Dharmakaya (eg. Vairocana). As far as I am aware, debates on Amitabha's form usually centers around whether we are talking about his Sambhogakaya or Dharmakaya aspect.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby thunderbumble » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:55 pm

zamotcr wrote:In Mahayana, Pure Land are usually depicted as a Reward Land. Each Buddha, after his enlightenment, create his own Pure Land according to their merits.
In the Trikaya theory, the Enjoyment Body has a beginning, but not an end. Following this logic, an Enjoyment Land, which is Pure in nature, a Realm of the Buddhas, will never decay or become in Impure, because it is created by each Buddha merit and mind.

Different Masters explains this Enjoyment Lands as outside Samsara and Triple Realm, even when Sutras describes the Pure Lands as "earthly" worlds, with beginning and with an end.

The Akshobhya Sutra, explain how will be Decline of the True Dharma in his Pure Land with the following words:

A Treasury of Mahāyāna Sūtras: Selections from the Mahāratnakūta Sūtra pag. 332 wrote:"Sariputra, after the extinction of the true Dharma, there will be a great light illuminating all the worlds in the ten directions, and all the earths will quake, making a great sound. However, [you should know that] the true Dharma cannot be destroyed by the celestial demons, nor will the Tathagata and his disciples pass into oblivion of their own accord. [b]It is because people of that time will lack interest in learning the Dharma that those who can expound the Dharma will go away form them. Hearing little of the true Dharma, the people will become more incredulous, and as a result, they will not strive to practice the Dharma. Seeing the indifference of the people, monks well-versed in the Dharma will naturally withdraw into seclusion and preach the Dharma no more. In this way, the subtle, profound teaching of the Buddha will gradually disappear.[/b]"


Reading this fragment, if the Pure Lands like Amitabha, Medicine Buddha and Akshobhya were described as Outside Samsara and beyond Triple Realm, described as Enjoyment Lands, without death, how can be that the Dharma will decline in such lands? How can it be possible? We are talking about a Buddha Land, a Pure Land created by merits, how can beings there loose faith and contribute to a Dharma end? I can believe in this land a Dharma end is possible, but it's difficult to think in a Pure Land declining.

In the Lotus Sutra it is the same, different Pure Lands are described in this way, with a Dharma ending age.[/quote

In order to understand the old descriptions of pure lands, we must, because we are modern minded humans, put them into a relative framework.
If not, then we can also believe Zeus lives on Mt. Olympus?
Humans have two eyes and cannot see the 4th dimension of infinite space time. If we could see an objects ,"front, back, top, bottom, sides, and insides and all points of references" simultaneously, we'd be in the 4thD. https://www.khanacademy.org/science/cos ... observable
If there was some conscious essence after our physical death, because of the expansion in the 4th dimension this energy would soon be stretched out. It would lose coherence in the vastness of infinite space time.
Energy is finite. This earth is finite. One day all life on this planet will be dead. No one to read or understand
The Dharma. However, the truth of the Dharma is infinite. Therefore it is endless in it's merit.

How could the average person one thousand years ago
Comprehend this?
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby thunderbumble » Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:33 pm

We need to think big. Mahayana means, Big
Vehicle.
Could Buddhism exist with other sentient life forms in other galaxies with different sutras?
Silly conjecture?
I'm this sense the Dharma has no end.
Up is not really up. It is out and away.
Down is closer the heart.
To find Dharmakaya and the Way to the Pureland is in, not out.
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:18 pm

I was thinking again in this Pure Land.

"Sariputra, after the extinction of the true Dharma, there will be a great light illuminating all the worlds in the ten directions, and all the earths will quake, making a great sound. However, [you should know that] the true Dharma cannot be destroyed by the celestial demons, nor will the Tathagata and his disciples pass into oblivion of their own accord. It is because people of that time will lack interest in learning the Dharma that those who can expound the Dharma will go away form them. Hearing little of the true Dharma, the people will become more incredulous, and as a result, they will not strive to practice the Dharma. Seeing the indifference of the people, monks well-versed in the Dharma will naturally withdraw into seclusion and preach the Dharma no more. In this way, the subtle, profound teaching of the Buddha will gradually disappear."


Seems like this Buddha-Field is modeled or based in our Saha world. In Abhirathi there are monks there (therefore humans)!

For example, I can't imagine Sukhavati with a "Dharma Ending Age" or with people there that won't listen to Dharma.

If in Abhirathi such thing will happen (people without interest in hearing the Dharma there), then, how such people did reborn there in the first place? I mean, if they are not interested, why did they reborn there? That Buddha-Land sounds more like a Nirmanakaya-Land, like our Saha world, but with pure environment, with ceasing and arising and not a Reward Land like Sukhavati.

What do you think?
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby Asbestos Buddha » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:09 am

In the last days, when because of greed, delusion, and lust, the earth is polluted and the sun is old and dying?
There is really no "now moment". It's a continuity like seeing "." in an infinite line.
How can the Dharma fade away in the infinte? There are other worlds with other Buddhas.
The present moment has been, is, and always will be.
It is the stream and there is no end.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby LastLegend » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:34 am

The only way to know is to go there yourself.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:11 am

It is interesting to me that at one time practices aimed at rebirth in Tushita were popular.

My understanding was always that Tushita is harder to get to because a very high level of ethics ia one of the prerequisites.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Fri May 30, 2014 3:29 pm

Hello,

So long after I created this thread.

I was thinking on this. It is said that Akshobhya sutra is one of the first dealing with Pure Land doctrine. The Trikaya doctrine wasn't, perhaps, fully developed already.
Also I read this from Paul Williams:

"According to such texts as the Dazhidulun, the Lotus SEtra (text, rather than its East Asian
interpretation) and the Suvarnabhasottama Sutra, after an enormously long period of time a
Buddha will eventually enter final nirvaua, although according to the first of these the Buddha’s
Transformation Bodies will continue in order to help sentient beings. These texts clearly
operate with the (older?) notion that the length of a Buddha’s life, as with all beings, is
the result of his merit gained in the past. Since the Buddha’s merit, while immense, cannot
be literally infinite (as it is the result of finite acts), the Buddha’s lifespan must in reality be
finite (cf. Suvarnabhasottama Sutra 1970: 5–8). In other texts, however, apparently later in
date, such as the Buddhabhumi Sastra, the Buddhas never enter final nirvana. Part of the
problem is that some texts view beings as infinite, and other (Yogacara) texts maintain that
there are some beings who as a matter of fact will never attain enlightenment. The Buddhas
remain, therefore, either to continue to save infinite sentient beings, or to try and provide
more pleasant rebirths for those who will never put an end to the round of samsara.
Here
we find the extreme point of the Mahayana emphasis on compassion. The concern of the Buddhas is so
great that they are resolved never to enter any final nirvana of complete quiescence and peace, but
rather to remain and help other beings."
(Mahayana Buddhism, page 186)

Also, in the beginning of the Pure Land doctrines, it was believed that Pure Lands did have an end, they were modeled using our world as reference, like if Pure Lands were another far far distant galaxy or world. So perhaps, the Sutra were writen with was believed in that time about Pure Lands, with what people knew that time.

Also I can think on this, it is said that Amitabha True Pure Land is Nirvana itself, and that the Transformation Land is for those who didn't entrust fully to Amitabha. It is described that Transformation Land is not limitless, that people there cannot hear Amitabha, the physical descriptions it is said to belong there. If we use the same reasoning, we can say that the "Dharma Ending Age" in Akshobya Abhirati Pure Land, is just an illusion and not the True Pure Land. At the end, the True Pure Land is not different from Nirvana, from enlightenment itself.

What I still find hard to believe is in an objective, traceable on a map Pure Lands. I can believe, and try to interpret in that way, Pure Lands as in different, subtle and transcending planes, but I'm still not sure.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby Aemilius » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:24 am

paulwilliams wrote:
notion that the length of a Buddha’s life, as with all beings, is
the result of his merit gained in the past. Since the Buddha’s merit, while immense, cannot
be literally infinite (as it is the result of finite acts), the Buddha’s lifespan must in reality be
finite


There is worldy merit and transcendental merit. Look for example merit in the Diamond sutra and other Prajna paramita sutras. The point in all of the perfections, paramita, is that they go beyond the ordinary and that they are thus transworldly, in some sense.

In fact You never die, because there is reincarnation!

Most normal people hope for an extinction-death, which buddhism denies.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:55 pm

What I still don't know is: how does this match within the Pure Land framework?

It is said that Sambhogakaya Buddha's are limitless... Then why is described in the Sutras that Amitabha, Akshobya and every other transcended Buddha will attain Paranirvana and their Pure Land will pass through the Dharma Ending Age? It is supposed that those lands are created by merits, Dharma Ending Age does not seems to fit there, then why is that described in the sutras? Are the sutras reflecting a vision discarded by another one? How do you see these pure lands, as limitless, eternal, Buddhas never abandoning their childs? Or do you see the Buddhas entering Paranirvana?

What I read from the sutras does not seem to correspond with what is usually believed and taught by patriarchs and such...
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby Aemilius » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:48 am

zamotcr wrote:What I still don't know is: how does this match within the Pure Land framework?

It is said that Sambhogakaya Buddha's are limitless... Then why is described in the Sutras that Amitabha, Akshobhya and every other transcended Buddha will attain Paranirvana and their Pure Land will pass through the Dharma Ending Age? It is supposed that those lands are created by merits, Dharma Ending Age does not seems to fit there, then why is that described in the sutras? Are the sutras reflecting a vision discarded by another one? How do you see these pure lands, as limitless, eternal, Buddhas never abandoning their childs? Or do you see the Buddhas entering Paranirvana?

What I read from the sutras does not seem to correspond with what is usually believed and taught by patriarchs and such...


I have read the two Sukhavati sutras plus the Amitayur dhyana sutra several times, and I haven't seen there anything like "dharma ending age in the Sukhavati"! I mean the older translations of F. Max Muller and the newer ones by Luis O. Gomez, and also some other translations available in the web.

Never abandoning their children? The spiritual children need to grow up. This means that they must become Buddhas themselves. They must assume the full responsibility, which means that they will have to get rid of, or abandon, their spiritual father! How else could it take place?

This truth is hinted at in the White Lotus Sutra in the simile of the Physician Father, who goes away and leaves his children on their own, so that they may take care of themselves. Entering Parinirvana is skilfull means, says the Lotus Sutra. And by extension it is merit too.

"Never abandon" also means that he is present as Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya, if urgent need should arise.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby zamotcr » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:50 pm

Aemilius wrote:I have read the two Sukhavati sutras plus the Amitayur dhyana sutra several times, and I haven't seen there anything like "dharma ending age in the Sukhavati"! I mean the older translations of F. Max Muller and the newer ones by Luis O. Gomez, and also some other translations available in the web.

Never abandoning their children? The spiritual children need to grow up. This means that they must become Buddhas themselves. They must assume the full responsibility, which means that they will have to get rid of, or abandon, their spiritual father! How else could it take place?

This truth is hinted at in the White Lotus Sutra in the simile of the Physician Father, who goes away and leaves his children on their own, so that they may take care of themselves. Entering Parinirvana is skilfull means, says the Lotus Sutra. And by extension it is merit too.

"Never abandon" also means that he is present as Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya, if urgent need should arise.


In the sutras about Akshobya, his Parinirvana is described, as it is described too that his teaching in his Pure Land will fade away, due to the Dharma Ending Age (Ending Age in a Pure Land???). About Amitabha, his Parinirvana is describes here http://www.fodian.net/world/dabei_sutra.htm in the Sūtra of the Prophecy Bestowed upon Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva.
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby Aemilius » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:35 am

zamotcr wrote:
Aemilius wrote:I have read the two Sukhavati sutras plus the Amitayur dhyana sutra several times, and I haven't seen there anything like "dharma ending age in the Sukhavati"! I mean the older translations of F. Max Muller and the newer ones by Luis O. Gomez, and also some other translations available in the web.

Never abandoning their children? The spiritual children need to grow up. This means that they must become Buddhas themselves. They must assume the full responsibility, which means that they will have to get rid of, or abandon, their spiritual father! How else could it take place?

This truth is hinted at in the White Lotus Sutra in the simile of the Physician Father, who goes away and leaves his children on their own, so that they may take care of themselves. Entering Parinirvana is skilfull means, says the Lotus Sutra. And by extension it is merit too.

"Never abandon" also means that he is present as Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya, if urgent need should arise.


In the sutras about Akshobya, his Parinirvana is described, as it is described too that his teaching in his Pure Land will fade away, due to the Dharma Ending Age (Ending Age in a Pure Land???). About Amitabha, his Parinirvana is describes here http://www.fodian.net/world/dabei_sutra.htm in the Sūtra of the Prophecy Bestowed upon Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva.


I know of the sutras translated by Rulu. Prophecy to Avalokiteshvara is not among the important sutras of the Amitabha schools in China and Japan. I have read many of Rulu's translations and I think they are good, or fairly OK, as far as I can judge.
There is a usefull book about early pureland school in China: Dawn of Chinese Pure Land Buddhist Doctrine by Kenneth K. Tanaka.

You can think for yourself, or meditate for Yourself, and find out how You will perceive these lands.
Personally I don't see a difficulty here. If there is a fixed number of beings that have been born in Akshobhya's pureland, and then it happens that no one anymore attains rebirth there (due to the degeneration of beings and of Dharma on Earth), what will happen? As every one there will attain the final release from all sorrows, or the ten bhumis of bodhisattavas, or the Three Kayas of Buddhahood. How will that manifest in Your vision? to Your thinking capacity?

The Avalokiteshavara sutra in fact says that after the parinirvana of Amitabha Mahasthamaprapta will attain awakening and after his parinirvana Avalokiteshvara will attain awakening, (the order of their awakening maybe be different). You are misrepresenting the theme of this sutra, if You say that Amitabha will enter Parinirvana, according to this particular teaching, and then leave out the awakening of the two bodhisattvas!
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Re: Akshobhya Pure Land end

Postby Aemilius » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:43 am

If you read the preceding passages in the Akshobhya pureland sutra, this topic becomes quite different:

" Furthermore, Shariputra, after Tathagata Akshobhya has entered great nirvana, the true Dharma will endure in his world for a hundred thousand kalpas."
Thereupon Shariputra asked the Buddha, "World Honored One, for a hundred thousand kalpas of what kind will the true Dharma of Tathagata Akshobhya endure in the world?"
The Buddha told Shariputra, "Twenty small kalpas make one kalpa, and the true Dharma will endure for a hundred thousand such kalpas."

The sutra is in Scribd, in the Treasury of Mahayana sutras.

Beings have free will, if they have no interest in the Dharma anymore, then it is a natural fact that has its natural consequences.
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