Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby ylee111 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:59 am

What are the main differences between the 4 schools of Japanese Pure Land?

I know:

Jodo Shu:
- repetution of Nembetsu practice
- other Bodhisattva such as Kuan Yin and Jizo represented

Jodo Shinshu:
- only Amitabha present
- Nemebetsu only needed to be said once for Pure Land admittance
- preferred by Robert Anton Wilson (founder of Discordianism and popularized the Illuminatus in modern times)

Which of the 4 is closest to Chinese Pure Land? Again I ask because these 4 are classified separately on the list of 13 Japanese Buddhism Schools by Japanese academia, and I want to learn as much as possible on these 13 schools.
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby Jiko » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:55 am

I am and have been Jodo Shu for some time so I can answer this for you.

Jodo Shu is very much the same as Chinese Pure Land, Honen Shonin taught based on Shan Tao's commentary on the meditation sutra, although Jodo Shu only recites Nembutsu because it is the rightly established act in accord with the 18th Vow. Chinese pure land practice precepts and various other things, sometimes chan aswell.

Honen Shonin had visitations from Shan Tao in dreams and in Samadhi and so Jodo Shu is very much in line with the linage of Pure Land. There is much debate about Honen's Samadhi and his work the Senchakushu. If Honen did indeed attain Nembutsu Samadhi then his work the Senchakushu was a work compiled in a state of Samadhi as the dates match up. Myself I have no doubt that Honen was in Nembutsu Samadhi by the fact he recited 60 and sometimes 70,000 Nembutsu daily.

There is justice for Samadhi in this Nembutsu path, just look at recent masters like Yin Gaung, he attained the Buddha Name Samadhi and was well documented.

As for the other Nembutsu teachings after Honen, I do not have enough knowledge on them to say anything but see Honen as the authority in Japan on the pure land way so I play it safe.
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby Northern Light » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:58 pm

I'm part of the Amida sect (based in the UK) and our practice is much closer to Jodo-Shu than the other 3 schools.

We actively recite the Nembutsu, but also engage in Nei Quan and Chih Quan as auxiliary practices. If you're not aware of these practices, (anyone) google them; they are beautiful practices, where we reflect on our dependence on so many other people (Nei Quan), and then give everything in our daily experience (our good, bad and indifferent thought, actions and intents of the day) to Amida. (Chih Quan).

But they are auxiliary. They affirm our faith. But only the Nembutsu (for us 'Namo Amida Bu') is true 'practice'.

We are freely supported if we choose to do other practices (such as Mindfulness or Metta Meditations) but we must give them all as Nembutsu. We do not consider them as meritous in their own right - they are 'given' to Amida, either informally, or formally during Chih Quan.

==========

I don't know a lot about Jodo Shinshu, except that they see chanting solely as a thanks to Amida for an entry to the Pure Land, already granted.

I have read a little about the Yuzu Nembutsu Sect and really liked it - they are Pure Landers who are really into nondualism and consider that chanting the Nembutsu benefits all sentient beings and will contribute towards all sentient beings being born in Sukavhati.
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby rory » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:36 am

The Yuzu Nenbutsu sect regards Ryonin (1072-1132) as it's founder his understanding of Nenbutsu was based on Avatamsaka philosophy a school which I am very close to. Also the Jodo Shu website does a decent job of explaining this:
http://www.jsri.jp/English/Pureland/DOC ... mbutsu.htm

Ages ago I asked Doug to tell me about their main temple Dainenbutsuji, so read about it here:
http://jkllr.net/2009/11/02/ryonin-and- ... -nembutsu/

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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby PorkChop » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:40 am

Northern Light wrote:I have read a little about the Yuzu Nembutsu Sect and really liked it - they are Pure Landers who are really into nondualism and consider that chanting the Nembutsu benefits all sentient beings and will contribute towards all sentient beings being born in Sukavhati.


Only thing I'd be wary about with the Yuzu Nembutsu Sect is their emphasis on group ritual. Part of their interconnected Nembutsu is the ceremony. If you watched the videos on the other thread, they were an official ceremony with many members participating.

Otherwise, I think the outlook of a lot of these nembutsu schools is somewhat interchangable; this is especially dependent on your local sangha. If you're practicing by yourself either way, and your local sangha is not too adamant about your viewpoint on practice, then reciting nembutsu for the good of all is more about your own motivation rather than some doctrinal standpoint. Not to out you or anything, but given Amida Shu's affinity with Jodo Shu, if you want to think of your recitations benefiting all around you, then I think there's no problem. Shoku was a student of Honen that was well aware of the entire Buddhist canon, his grand-student Ippen was one of the biggest proponents of nonduality. My point is that the aspect of the Yuzu Nembutsu practice that you like, is not necessarily outside of your own tradition.
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby ylee111 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:25 am

Not to revive a dead thread, but I wonder if Ven Indrjala, Jikan, Astus, and others have any knowledge on this subject.
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby Methexis » Sat May 17, 2014 5:55 pm

ylee111 wrote:Not to revive a dead thread, but I wonder if Ven Indrjala, Jikan, Astus, and others have any knowledge on this subject.


Since nobody replied to this I'd like to offer my 2 cents ... I will focus more on Jishu and Shinshu in this post, building on what has already been said of the other two schools.

Basically, both Ippen's Jishu and Shinran's Shinshu can be seen as 1) a radicalization of Honen's teachings and 2) a "reintegration" of Honen's teaching back into Mahayana

As for (1): what I mean by "radicalization" is that both Ippen and Shinran went to the extreme of the "Other Power" spectrum, eliminating any trace whatsoever of "Own Power" (or "Self Power"). In Shinran, this means that it's not through our own practice of nembutsu that we are born. It's not something that depends on your effort, how often and how much you say it. Birth is simply a matter of shinjin that is faith, and again this faith or trust or entrusting is not something we do, it's not our own act. Shinran often quotes Honen's saying, "in Pure Land Way, no working is true working". Shinjin, true entrusting in the Vow, saves us not because we deserve it or because we practice enough; it is simply a gift by Amida Buddha. This is completely monergistic. Monergism is opposed to synergism. Monergism means one is saved by an outside agency (like God or in this case, Amida) only - the practice of salvation is completely something done by the Other Power and not our own doing.

Why is this important? It's because if we are working within a framework of synergism, there's always the threat of calculation, of "spiritual materialism". You begin counting your nembutsu, and thinking the more you say it, the more chances are you will go to the Pure Land, you can get trapped in it like buying "Heaven points" with which you'll buy yourself a nice parcel in the Pure Land. It becomes exaclty the opposite of what it should lead to (selflessness). Our caculating mind is so cunning that it will use anything, even spiritual practice, to reinforce our own existence, or rather, its own existence, the perpetuation of calculative thinking.

Now Ippen, is very similar, but compared to Shinran, there are two things to be said. 1) he ditches even "faith" as another "self power" , something that is frail and unreliable ... 2) he was influenced by Zen (more non-dualist style compared to Shinran). - Ippen once met a monk who told him: "I'm sorry Ippen, I want to believe in the nembutsu, but it just doesn't happen. Faith doesn't arise in me. It's not my fault." - this led Ippen into a crisis ... what if faith simply doesn't arise in a person even though they hear about the 18th Vow and the Pure Land and the Easy Practice that saves everyone who calls? he went into a deep spiritual crisis and in the dream, an apparition (let's say a messenger of Amida) told him: "Oh you fool, why do you spread the nembutsu of interpenetration in the wrong way? Faith or no faith, it doesn't matter. Namu-amida-butsu itself is born." - This was the decisive thing ... now he disregarded even faith. Because faith AS a feeling in our minds is as impermanent as anything else ... like our thoughts, emotions, inclinations ... according to Ippen, our minds are totally unreliable so we can't hope to have a firm faith. Instead, only the Name itself is reliable. Only Namu-Amida-Butsu is reliable. The Name is the only refuge.

OK this is a little too long already. I won't go into point (2), but basically both Ippen and Shinran reintegrated Honen's teachings into a wider Mahayana context. Shinran by reactualizing the concept of "bodhicitta" which faded in Honen. And Ippen by using the "Mind-only" lingo, "one mind", no duality between the utterer of the Name and the Name itself ...

One last thing, even though it appears Ippen went to the extreme of the "Other Power" spectrum, that can be deceiving ... in fact, Shinran would agree with Ippen that our faith is fragile and unreliable like everything else. If by "faith" we mean the FEELING of believing. But what Shinran really means by "shinjin" is not something that is ours. It's not something that we do, it's Amida's own working, ... basically when we utter the Name in shinjin (true entrusting), it is Amida calling us, not us calling Amida; Ippen would say "it is the Name calling the Name".

Overall Shinran is more consistent and rational, and so his line survived and is the dominant school of Pure Land today. Ippen was a bit crazier, Zen-like character, but I really recommend the book "No Abode" if you can find it. It's full of "holy fire", ardent religious passion. Ippen is fire, Shinran is water.
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby Dodatsu » Sun May 18, 2014 2:40 am

May I add, a lot of Jishu adherents converted to Shinshu during the time of Rennyo, the 8th Head Abbot of Honganji. A detailed discussion can be found in both James C. Dobblins' "Jodo Shinshu: Shin Buddhism in Mediveal Japan" and Ann and Minor Rogers' "Rennyo, the Second Founder of Shin Buddhism"
Contemplating the power of Tathagata's Primal Vow,
One sees that no foolish being who encounters it passes by in vain.
When a person single-heartedly practices the saying of the Name alone,
It brings quickly to fullness and perfection [in that person] the great treasure ocean of true and real virtues.
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby PorkChop » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:47 pm

Stumbled across some Yuzu Nembutsu (融通念仏宗) & Jishu (時宗) videos while looking up some info on Nembutsu Shu; so I figured I would share.

First up, from Yuzu Nembutsu School...

Short video showing statue of Yuzu Nembutsu founder Ryonin


Yuzu Nembutsu procession through the streets (from a park to Dai Nembutsu Temple I believe) chanting the Nembutsu


Yuzu Nembutsu procession into Todaiji with some Shomyo (I'm assuming due to shared heritage of the Avatamsaka with the Kegon sect?)


Walk through of Yuzu Nembutsu school's head temple, "Dai Nembutsu Ji"


Another quick walk through of Dai Nembutsu Ji, this time showing an outdoor statue


One last walk through with hosts and some more time inside


Video (4m41s) of the Yuzu Nembutsu Manbu Oneri (万部おねり) service from May 1, 2014 (Dai Nembutsu Ji)


Video (25m) of the Yuzu Nembutsu Manbu Oneri (万部おねり) service from May 1, 2014 (Dai Nembutsu Ji)


Video (7m) of the Yuzu Nembutsu Manbu Oneri (万部おねり) service from May 3, 2014 (Dai Nembutsu Ji)


Service similar to the Manbu Oneri held at Taima Dera, doesn't say but probably from Jodo Shu
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby PorkChop » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:12 pm

Now, for the Ji Sect (時宗)

A ~5m intro to the Kokenji (光見寺) Temple:


Walk through (3m26s) of Ji Shu Head temple Yukoji (遊行寺) Temple


Nembutsu Dancing from Yukoji Temple (dancing starts around 3:30)


1m video of a statue of Ippen


More Nembutsu Dancing and some Shomyo chanting from the Ji Sect (dancing starts around 17m, solemn japanese monk version of the Soul Train line starts around 27:15)
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:41 pm

Thanks for the videos Pork Chop.

Is there any vids of their priests teaching their schools view points,like in a one on one setting.
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Re: Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu vs Jishu vs Yuzu Nembetsu Shu?

Postby PorkChop » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:05 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:Thanks for the videos Pork Chop.

Is there any vids of their priests teaching their schools view points,like in a one on one setting.


So far I can only find a Dharma Talk from the Ji Sect, unfortunately no English subtitles.
No roundtable of Pure Land traditions as far I can find.
Here's a Dharma Talk from Ji Shu's Yukoji Temple:

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