Why Daisaku Ikeda he is suffering?

[Seishin]

And, as I understand things, not everything is due to karma according to the Pali canon, there is also Natural Laws (dhamma niyama), Biological Laws (bij niyama), Physical Laws (utu niyama) and Psychological Laws (citta niyama).

If I have misunderstood this, or there is a different teaching in Mahayana, I'd like to learn about it.

[Ayu]

And, as I understand things, not everything is due to karma according to the Pali canon, there is also Natural Laws (dhamma niyama), Biological Laws (bij niyama), Physical Laws (utu niyama) and Psychological Laws (citta niyama).

If I have misunderstood this, or there is a different teaching in Mahayana, I'd like to learn about it.

My Tibetan teacher explained it also like this in the lecture about the Lamrim. I suppose, this is common sense in many (all?) Buddhist traditions.

[rory]

Actually Nichiren is very clear about sufferings being the product of karma. I'm sure Illaraza and the other practitioners have the quotes, though I will go and look for them.

It's a very helpful concept. When i was quite ill some years ago ( I either had a brain tumor,brain aneurysm, or 6th nerve palsy with the chance of a brain infection) I did not fall into the pit of 'why me?' According to the Buddha's teachings old age, illness and death are inevitable. I didn't ask 'why am I suffering from x?" It was my karma - a complex combination of things, past actions, group actions etc.I found it very liberating, as I was surrounded by believing Roman Catholics who were shocked and depressed...Instead I chanted, practiced on my sickbed. It was an amazing experience from my Buddhist point of view, as I literally experienced interdependence (nurses taking care of me) gratitude everything i'd ever read. I also dealt and conquered my fear of death (I'd go to Eagle Peak) and then experienced compassion for others & got up, clutching my IV and visited others on my ward .I was wearing an eyepatch and suffering from bad aenemia, probably the sickest & weakest looking person on the ward. But many asked how I could look so grounded, strong etc... and I told them.

Spreading the teachings of the Lotus Sutra is a great karmic act (the LS says so) but perverting them to be about yourself (Ikeda) is a big big fault. Any religious Buddhist will understand what I have written and agree that's a normative understanding of karma.

The parables in the Lotus Sutra help regular people to understand the wonderful and profound concepts, in a beautiful way. Anyone who likes art and music will understand what I am saying.

Karma is an essential part of Buddhist beliefs.
gassho
Rory

[Myoho-Nameless]

It's nice to know you're "bored" with science. Maybe having a logical explanation for things is boring.

I said atheism is boring. not science. There are differences between science and atheism, and for that matter what you called "logic". Science is very interesting to me, well actually that depends on the field of study. I had a nasty stint in a hospital where I almost died, other people in my condition at the hospital actually did die. I suspect I know where I picked up the virus, though actually I think they can lay dormant in you for a while. To my mind, why it happened to me, karma if there is any truth to it played a role in my suffering. From the physicalist perspective that is still random chance, the "why did I experience it?," question. The nature of viruses, transmission of them, immune systems and all that certainly is cause and effect and not random.

And, as I understand things, not everything is due to karma according to the Pali canon, there is also Natural Laws (dhamma niyama), Biological Laws (bij niyama), Physical Laws (utu niyama) and Psychological Laws (citta niyama).

I remember being taught this by a Monk in what I think was the Thien tradition. I almost brought it up but I forgot the terminology. Not everything is karma in Buddhism (or at least the pali cannon), nothing has one cause and the monk even said not everything is caused by all 5. Thank you for bringing it up, I did not even know what to call these to google them.


I don't really support the idea of going around and saying Ikeda is ill because of this or that bad deed. And as someone else mentioned it takes someone "going full Buddha" to understand someone else's karma like that, according to Buddhism. As unenlightened beings we can't know, and the speculation is often given in a mean spirited fashion by people with a bone to pick with either Ikeda or the SGI.

is not too far from the logic that has some people cast out of their villages in Africa because they are accused of being "witches." In plain language, it is superstition.

not really. Because the teaching of karma is not supposed to be used to ostracize people or to satisfy people's revenge fantasies. The Buddha was compassionate to Angulimala. Also, its not a claim that I am making. I DON'T know Ikeda's karmic situation. I don't keep up on his personal life and I am decidedly not an SGI member, for reasons that would grossly derail this thread. I wish them well but I don't want much to do with them (well......I DID buy my new juzu beads from their bookstore).

we have a different view on what is "superstition". be prepared to encounter a lot of "superstition" on this Buddhist forum.

Would you consider it smug for someone to assume he or she knows what someone else's karma is, and how it will ripen?

That would depend on how they go about saying it I suppose. But its a claim that, whether they are smug or not, is not one I am interested in unless a Buddha was saying it to me. Why should I assume that this person knows the other being's karma or which of the aforementioned 5 categories of cause and effect are the cause of X Y or Z? I would assume the claim is arrogant. but the general idea of people falling ill often having something to do with their karma is in keeping with what I know about Buddhism unless someone wants to point me to something about Buddhism saying otherwise.

[Saguaro]

Actually Nichiren is very clear about sufferings being the product of karma.

Nichiren was a monk who lived in medieval Japan in the 1200s. He made sense of the world the best he could at the time. Nichiren is not a doctor in a hospital in 2015.

There is a big difference between Buddhist "beliefs" and scientific fact. The concept of karma can be helpful when thinking in terms of cause-and-effect. But when using it for a diagnosis, it becomes quite useless. The way you are using it is no different than a born-again Christian saying that a gay person has AIDS because it is God's punishment for homosexuality.

And it is completely subjective. You described him as having bad karma for something that his followers would say has accumulated good karma for him. Which point of view is karma supposed to listen to? One of the two of you is wrong.

I think I have to bow out of this conversation because I can't believe I'm having a grown adults.

[Myoho-Nameless]

I know right? Buddhists believing in karma. Bunch a whackadoos. Its weird to find them in a place like this. For the love of Dawkins who would ever see that coming?

[rory]

Saguaro; I hate to pop your balloon but Buddhism is a religion with beliefs and faith; not some kind of popular physical therapy. You simply don't understand karma, it will work itself out in Ikeda's life and has nothing to do with either me or his followers.

Anyway to continue this discussion of karma in Nichiren Buddhism here are two quotes from a letter Nichiren wrote to a sick follower Curing Karmic Disease:

The Nirvana Sutra reads, "There are three types of people whose illness is extremely difficult to cure. The first are those who slander the great vehicle; the second, those who commit the five cardinal sins; and the third, icchantikas or persons of incorrigible disbelief. These three categories of illness are the gravest in the world."

and:

The Nirvana Sutra, referring to the Lotus Sutra, states, "Even the offense of slandering this correct teaching [will be eradicated] if one repents and professes faith in the correct teaching.... No teaching other than this correct teaching can save or protect one. For this reason one should take faith in the correct teaching."

http://nichiren.info/gosho/CuringKarmicDisease.htm

So you can see there is a clear reason why the initial poster Mirko, asked about Ikeda and why others can discuss serious karmic offenses. But it is also very clear from the quotes from the Sutras that :
bad karma in this lifetime can be expiated by faith in the Lotus Sutra
gassho
Rory

[Saguaro]

I know right? Buddhists believing in karma. Bunch a whackadoos. Its weird to find them in a place like this. For the love of Dawkins who would ever see that coming?

If he had been diagnosed with lung cancer as a result of smoking too much, then THAT would be a logical situation to attribute to karma. Cause-and-effect. But to suggest he is having health problems because he leads his organization in a way that you do not approve of (but that millions do approve of), that's actually egotism. You really think the laws of the universe make others ill when you don't approve of them?

Like Christians, Buddhists also pick and choose which aspects of the religion they will believe, and which they will ignore. Which things are metaphorical and which are literal.

[Myoho-Nameless]

You really think the laws of the universe make others ill when you don't approve of them?

Had you actually read anything I said, you would know that I never said any such thing. To reiterate, I don't claim any knowledge on Mr Ikeda's karmic situation and I don't follow up on him enough to approve or disapprove of him. Only that, according to Buddhism, if he is suffering, karma is a cause of it.

Like Christians, Buddhists also pick and choose which aspects of the religion they will believe, and which they will ignore. Which things are metaphorical and which are literal.

Yup. I already mentioned we draw lines in different places. But when you deviate enough from a certain point, and then be smug with your high and mighty extra special take on the issue, don't be surprised when you are called out or just regarded as a Buddhist groupie.

you sort of remind me of me once......

[Seishin]

Perhaps it would be better for Sagauro to take his/her understanding of karma to this thread http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678

[rory]

I think it's kind of funny really; Saguaro's loud devout belief in atheism. It doesn't offend me personally as due to my past experiences I know the Dharma is true. That's the whole point with Nichiren Buddhism; you do it yourself and check out the results. I'm terribly pragmatic that way.

Anyway Saguaro, why do you chant? As the reasons are given below in my signature: that all the karmic benefits of the Buddha are in the Lotus Sutra. Do you have any ambition to be a bodhisattva? Cause you're not oozing well-being to your fellow men, trying to belittle their faith!
gassho
Rory
fyi: the rabbis at my liberal Jewish temple were atheists and so was I at 9. Nihil novi sub sole....

[jiyu-no-bosatsu]

I think it's kind of funny really; Saguaro's loud devout belief in atheism. It doesn't offend me personally as due to my past experiences I know the Dharma is true. That's the whole point with Nichiren Buddhism; you do it yourself and check out the results. I'm terribly pragmatic that way.

Anyway Saguaro, why do you chant? As the reasons are given below in my signature: that all the karmic benefits of the Buddha are in the Lotus Sutra. Do you have any ambition to be a bodhisattva? Cause you're not oozing well-being to your fellow men, trying to belittle their faith!
gassho
Rory
fyi: the rabbis at my liberal Jewish temple were atheists and so was I at 9. Nihil novi sub sole....

What's funny, in a not-actually-really-funny-kind-of-way, is that Saguaro is getting all this grief. Why are you (not just you Rory, but others as well) feeling so touchy on this subject? How is Saguaro or anyone capable of belittling your faith? Your faith is up to you, as Nichiren himself points out, doesn't he?

[jiyu-no-bosatsu]

You really think the laws of the universe make others ill when you don't approve of them?

Had you actually read anything I said, you would know that I never said any such thing. To reiterate, I don't claim any knowledge on Mr Ikeda's karmic situation and I don't follow up on him enough to approve or disapprove of him. Only that, according to Buddhism, if he is suffering, karma is a cause of it.

Actually, to be bringing up karma in a topic that is speculating about rumors is suspect to begin with. It *does* imply a judgment. Otherwise, why would you even deign to enter this discussion, which is as I pointed out earlier, malicious to begin with.

To be more specific, the point of view that Mr Ikeda's RUMORED illness or suffering is due to karma is subjective, as apparently nobody here bothered to remember or remark that karma is only one out of six causes of illness mentioned by Nichiren, T'ien-t'ai and others. Again, that does imply judgment. And how can you judge that? Saguaro was right on that, you can't.

The fact that Saguaro is calling you (and others) out should bother you, as the point he/she makes is absolutely valid. Because again, to be discussing it in this context is suspect to begin with as you are not discussing facts or personal experience.

It would be like starting a topic that claims you are a child rapist and everybody discussing the karmic ins and out of that, while nobody bothers to check whether the statement was true to begin with.

But that's the perverse side of human nature for you, more apt to believe in negative rumors than positive ones.

[Myoho-Nameless]

Actually, to be bringing up karma in a topic that is speculating about rumors is suspect to begin with. It *does* imply a judgment.

"Imply"? sure, but that does not mean I AM judging Mr Ikeda, I don't know much about him. I am not judging him, if thats what you are implying. If thats not good enough, whatever, I have had people I considered friends not take me at my word here, its nothing new.

Otherwise, why would you even deign to enter this discussion, which is as I pointed out earlier, malicious to begin with.

Why are you (not just you Rory, but others as well) feeling so touchy on this subject?

This is an "old" thread. I remember following it, mutely, because it was an odd one. I don't really like the fanatical anti SGI rhetoric, its often as cultish as the SGI is accused of being. I have no idea if Ikeda is ill, or was when this thread came into being, I did not bother to check because it not why I entered this conversation. I don't know, and I don't follow up. I can neither confirm nor deny. What I did say on the subject is that IF the rumor is true, its not out of the ordinary to believe, in a Buddhist context, that his karma might have had something to do with it. Not that any of us KNOW, some people have a chip on their shoulder about the SGI and might want to believe it, but they can't know. Someone mentioned the 5 kinds of cause and effect of which karma is only one, you mention the 6 causes of illness (pretty sure this is spoken of in Mr Ikeda's own book "Unlocking the mysteries of life and death"), and I don't pretend to know anything about the rumored situation. Thats not why I came here. I gave my opinion, a few times, and again in this paragraph, partly because I try to avoid derailing threads. I don't even disagree with you or saguaro about the maliciousness about something that can't be proven.

I won't claim to being noble, I came here because smug, blind faith dogmatistic atheists rubbing their take on Buddhism in people's faces is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Saguaro's beliefs and claims such as they are, in and of themselves are not why I butted in. Really it had more to do with his take on science than his take on Buddhism (or how his take on science affected his take on Buddhism and the attitude he showed to those who disagreed with him). Saguaro is not the only one receiving "grief", all three parties participating to this point received it. it must be karma.

[Saguaro]

Perhaps it would be better for Sagauro to take his/her understanding of karma to this thread http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678

My understanding of karma isn't the issue here. The issue here is people masking their prejudices in Buddhist rhetoric.

It is a perspective, not a fact, that he has been ill advised in the way he has led SGI.

[Saguaro]

Hate not. For you are not going to pop my anything.

You have shifted the focus from your argument that he has led SGI incorrectly thus accumulating negative karma, to my alleged lack of understanding of the concept.

All I'm saying is that the opinion that he has led SGI incorrectly, is just that, an opinion.

Saguaro; I hate to pop your balloon but Buddhism is a religion with beliefs and faith; not some kind of popular physical therapy. You simply don't understand karma, it will work itself out in Ikeda's life and has nothing to do with either me or his followers.

Anyway to continue this discussion of karma in Nichiren Buddhism here are two quotes from a letter Nichiren wrote to a sick follower Curing Karmic Disease:

The Nirvana Sutra reads, "There are three types of people whose illness is extremely difficult to cure. The first are those who slander the great vehicle; the second, those who commit the five cardinal sins; and the third, icchantikas or persons of incorrigible disbelief. These three categories of illness are the gravest in the world."

and:

The Nirvana Sutra, referring to the Lotus Sutra, states, "Even the offense of slandering this correct teaching [will be eradicated] if one repents and professes faith in the correct teaching.... No teaching other than this correct teaching can save or protect one. For this reason one should take faith in the correct teaching."

http://nichiren.info/gosho/CuringKarmicDisease.htm

So you can see there is a clear reason why the initial poster Mirko, asked about Ikeda and why others can discuss serious karmic offenses. But it is also very clear from the quotes from the Sutras that :
bad karma in this lifetime can be expiated by faith in the Lotus Sutra
gassho
Rory

[Seishin]

Perhaps it would be better for Sagauro to take his/her understanding of karma to this thread http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678

My understanding of karma isn't the issue here. The issue here is people masking their prejudices in Buddhist rhetoric.

It is a perspective, not a fact, that he has been ill advised in the way he has led SGI.

That is very true, and you won't see me disagreeing. I didn't mean anything by my comment, simply that the thread was moving into a "karma debate" rather than an SGI debate. Please continue

In gassho,
Seishin

[rory]

1,First. the poster Mirko, I know from another place, he's ex/leaving-Nichiren Shoshu and genuinely trying to find answers. I'm sure he was told this...and working things out for himself. So he isn't 'malicious' but questioning.

2. 2nd. All illness comes from karma - neutral statement and directly supported by Nichiren's gosho. From a Nichiren Buddhist standpoint this is a given.

3. third. If Ikeda is ill it's due to karma....again since anyone's illness is due to karma, again, we're specifying a person but not making a judgement. This is applicable to everyone.


4.fourth. I said:

.but he has turned millions of people from revering the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Shonin to having them revere himself. Gods I wouldn't have his karma for anything.

Now the above is a conclusion that I have drawn from my review of the events that led from; the Nichiren Shoshu America break-up (a lot of documented public nastiness) the political corruption of the SGI political party Komeito (documented); and among other things check this out, the study materials website:
http://www.sgi.org/resources/study-materials/

There is no listing of the Lotus Sutra or Shakyamuni Buddha - the heart of Nichiren Buddhism! But a big listing of Daisaku Ikeda materials. Ergo my conclusion is drawn that Ikeda is focusing SGI on himself.

5. fifth. quotes from Nichiren quoting the Sutras:

The Nirvana Sutra reads, "There are three types of people whose illness is extremely difficult to cure. The first are those who slander the great vehicle; the second, those who commit the five cardinal sins; and the third, icchantikas or persons of incorrigible disbelief. These three categories of illness are the gravest in the world.

"The Nirvana Sutra, referring to the Lotus Sutra, states, "Even the offense of slandering this correct teaching [will be eradicated] if one repents and professes faith in the correct teaching.... No teaching other than this correct teaching can save or protect one. For this reason one should take faith in the correct teaching."

6. sixth. A person who commits a grave karmic act can nullify it by repenting and taking faith in the Lotus Sutra. Bad karma is not inevitable or fatalistic. It can certainly be overcome in this life. I repent at my altar for my bad karmic acts.
gassho
Rory

7. seven; Saguaro, why do you chant?

[illarraza]

Karma is not the only determinant of weal and woe. It is however, the most important because it is only through a correct Buddhist faith and practice that one can overcome negative karma. Let me give you the example of the causes of diseases as revealed by the Buddha. There are five or six major categories of the causes of disease taught by the Buddha. All, save for disease caused by karma, can be cured by a skilled physician, medicine, and the healing power of the person. Disease caused by karma [weighty causes and effects] can only be cured by the healing power of a correct faith and practice of Buddhism. Likewise, the most severe external [environmental] manifestations [effects] of weighty human causes [thoughts, words, and deeds] are floods, great winds, tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and war. As in the case of the most severe internal effects [severe illness], only through Buddhist faith and practice can we cure the most severe external “illnesses”. If the Earthquake, Tsunami, and nuclear meltdown in Japan is not due to karma, there are no seminal events that can be attributed to karma.

According to Nichiren Daishonin and Vasubhandu’s Dharma Analysis Treasury, the Abhidharmakosa [which is based on Vasubandu's exhaustive study of the Hinayana Sutras], the Japan disaster was caused by the karma of the people. By the principle of the most severe bad karma causing the most catastrophic events, the cause of the Japanese disaster is the Soka Gakkai whose karma it is to subvert the Law and the Buddha. Nichiren occasionaly cited the Dharma Analysis Treasury, the doctrines contained therein [windy circle], or the schools derived from this treatise. Also, according to this most important doctrine of the Dharma Analysis Treasury [the greatest good karma causing the most auspicious events], by far, the most important cause of the formation of planets and galaxies, for example, is due to the power of karmic reward of living beings. The slanderers with a piddling faith and understanding of the Buddhist teachings, those like Reverend Ryuei who criticize Nichiren and his followers, should first of all believe Nichiren Daishonin and then, if they still have any doubts, they should read Vasubandu’s Abhidharmakosa: https://abhidharmakosa.files.wordpress. ... erials.pdf

[Saguaro]

7. seven; Saguaro, why do you chant?

Why do you?