Rubbing hands/Juzu together while chanting?

[nichirenista]

Been meaning to ask about this for some time. I've only attended a few SGI meetings. At the end of one of the meetings, they asked if I had any questions. I asked why some of them rubbed their hands together while chanting. What I mean is, when they had their hands in the prayer position, they would rub them together and it would make a "jangling" sound with the Juzu beads.

When I asked this question, everyone got a little nervous. They then told me that it's actually not a good thing to do, but there is no religious significance to it; it's just that sometimes your hands can get cold. I just noticed a lot of nervousness in the room that made me wonder….

Anyone have any idea what this is about? Thanks.

[Myoho-Nameless]

What I heard was that this used to be a sign that the chanting session was about over, and the leader would do it. But some new converts saw it in the SGI and memed it and it became a habit.

Is this why I keep hearing of people breaking their juzu? I cannot for the life of me imagine what people are doing to them.

[Queequeg]

I just noticed a lot of nervousness in the room that made me wonder….

Don't read anything into that. Its just people getting called out on a bad habit. "Yeah, we really shouldn't do that."

Whatever the origin, I don't know. People in Japan did it if I recall, so its not an American thing.

In my experience, sometimes I did it if I was getting bored. It was like an involuntary tick to try and reset my concentration, or counter tiredness or tedium, because SGI daimoku sessions, at least in the old days, were LOOOOONG, on top of a LOOOOONG sutra recitation, and way longer than a teenager could tolerate. Sometimes it was for me a compulsive physical reaction to what was going through my mind - like remembering in the middle of daimoku that I need drop the rent check in the mail; I want to get up and do it immediately, but I also had sat down with the intention of reciting the daimoku at least 3000 times and was only at 500, for instance. My need to immediately act was sublimated into rubbing the beads. Or maybe recalling something I shouldn't have done, and rubbing beads in an effort to erase the thought.

I stopped because I realized it was just me trying to be somewhere other than where I was at that moment.

I'm sure everyone who does it has their reasons.

Some people rubbed like they were trying to rub out some horrible thing, like Lady Macbeth "Out damned spot!". Sometimes they'd rub so hard the beads would break. Some people opined that this signaled a breakthrough in karma. As far as superstitions go, not too far out.

[rory]

I actually love the sound the rubbing makes but then way back I was told it's to get the attention of the gods. I think that was HBS. No need to be embarrased.
gassho
Rory

[Masaru]

I actually love the sound the rubbing makes but then way back I was told it's to get the attention of the gods.

But some new converts saw it in the SGI and memed it and it became a habit.

I'm a people watcher. One of the things I love figuring out is how a person's behaviors reflect their unconscious world. Rubbing prayer beads together as a way of getting the gods' attention makes perfect sense as an origin - or at least, original explanation - for this behavior. When I saw it done, it always reminded me of people rubbing their hands together before throwing dice, as if the person doing it was in the process of successfully overcoming fate. Apparently, hand rubbing is associated with positive expectation. Maybe, when we do it, we're reflecting a change in our subconscious outlook.

Some people rubbed like they were trying to rub out some horrible thing, like Lady Macbeth "Out damned spot!". Sometimes they'd rub so hard the beads would break. Some people opined that this signaled a breakthrough in karma. As far as superstitions go, not too far out.

Good Gods man. That's macabre.

When I asked this question, everyone got a little nervous. They then told me that it's actually not a good thing to do, but there is no religious significance to it; it's just that sometimes your hands can get cold. I just noticed a lot of nervousness in the room that made me wonder….

Anyone have any idea what this is about? Thanks.

That's not an uncommon reaction to questions in the SGI. Just ask a group what "hiki daimoku" means. ("Long" daimoku, or chanting Namu myoho renge kyo instead of Nam myoho renge kyo. The former was chanted in NSA during sansho - triple repetition - instead of the latter, which was chanted the rest of the time.) You'll get the opportunity to soak up a nice awkward silence. SGI is a lay organization, so lots of people are uncomfortable dealing with things that can run much deeper than what is immediately apparent.

I've never looked into the actual origins of the behavior and just took it for granted as a kind of memetic tick, but I wonder what the actual origins of the behavior are. Maybe leaders used to rub their beads to summon the Gods under the guidance of the priesthood? Who knows.

[Myoho-Nameless]

They then told me that it's actually not a good thing to do, but there is no religious significance to it

I think technically there is no religious significance to the Juzu anymore period. Now that we use timers. The juzu are just an attractive vestigial organ. Not saying they are worthless because we can give them whatever religious significance we want I suppose. I went a long time without any, though I started to want my own for some reason. Kinda wish I bought a set that was black, they look cooler, and its my preferred color.

[rory]

I take it you don't have eye-opened Juzu or understand why it is done.
(gassho
Rory

[Myoho-Nameless]

Don't know, i got mine from the online SGI store if I remember correctly, not sure if they are given any "treatment".

My Gohonzon is, but I did it myself. I did not know juzu were.

[rory]

Okay, I'm not telling anyone what or how to believe but to understand why certain things are valuable... This is a nice explanation from NIchiren Shoshu (which I have to say despite the Nichiren=Buddha and plank Gohonzon thing does give good explanations)
http://www.nstmyosenji.org/traditions/b ... beads-juzu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rory

[Myoho-Nameless]

Try as I might, such things and attitudes frequently have little to no effect on me. Perhaps it is because of my mild autism.....

I had been and until told otherwise by enough people will continue to be under the impression that juzu were once used to count nmrk recitations in a time before timers, among some other ritualistic uses perhaps. Thats often what I use mine for when I do not have a timer, or have to chant away from my Gohonzon.

Its one of the few things I wear that people ask me about. more often than not "don't those get in the way? aren't they annoying?"

[rory]

Oh for sure that's what Juzu are for: counting recitations. Different sects have different types of juzu too...Tendai uses oval beads, Jodo Shu has double ring juzu. They're a great aid to keep count, though I prefer the Nichiren way of just setting a time, I leave my computer on and make up my mind how long I should chant (well I've been lax so re-doing it...). But to me juzu have so much meaning, they're so historic! You always see statues of founders holding their beads. I love them, my current set are white plastic with pink tassels and an eye-opening ceremony was done.As you can see it's not that my set are valuable rather the faith they invoke...

I think it's more an SGI mindset, not really into buddhist history or traditions.
gassho
rory

[nichirenista]

Thank you everyone for the responses. I think I try too hard sometimes. As someone mentioned, rubbing your hands together can sometimes indicate hopefulness, like what people do before they roll the dice. I guess I had thought that the nervous laughter I saw, was indication that there was some secret meaning here only for the initiated. In other words, I kind of wondered if maybe they were taught that rubbing their hands together would make it more likely that they would achieve what they were chanting for. lol

[gohonzon]

Rubbing Juzu beads is absolutely prohibited in Nichiren Shoshu, it is distracting and considered improper manners in our religious environment.

Juzu rubbing is prominent in several Buddhist sects. The reason why Juzu is rubbed is another form of "Purification". It is not done because one is asking things to the Gohonzon or the Buddha, it is done because the rubbing friction is a sign of "purification" before a ritual.

One of the most prominent sects that Rub Juzu beads is the SHINGON sect, to whom their priests rub Juzu beads when doing the Fire Goma ritual. They don't always do this, but they do this from time to time. Nichiren Shu also rubs their beads. This is one of the main examples why Nichiren Shoshu does not follow this practice.

Americans and other foreigner pilgrims in the 1960s and 1970's during the Shohondo building rubbed their beads thinking it is proper mannerism. There was a sincere attempt to correct this impious practice by some priests during that timeline but because the atmosphere during Ikeda Daisaku's reign was emphasized to be considerate of others----especially the ignorant non-Japanese foreigners, it was "tolerated", certainly never endorsed.

There is a minimal "rubbing" done with Juzu beads in Nichiren Shoshu, usually in the first two seconds of chanting among some Nichiren Shoshu members, but nothing more after than. and certainly not repeated over and over. In Nichiren Shoshu, if you are tired of chanting----just separate both palms again and start over... or twist the beads into your thumb to keep them in place.

Regarding the shape of Juzu beads, only perfectly round beads are allowed in Nichiren Shoshu. but the reason is rooted in the tradition of Engyo-----the perfect round, absolute teaching. This is echoed by Nichiren Shoshu in seeking the most purity of teachings of teachings. Nichiren Shoshu does not use informal beads-----Juzu bracelets. We just don't. Because we are a formal oriented, orthodox oriented practice, we use the formal type Juzu with the additional 5th "counter" string (Yes the beads that you are suppose to use in counting your daimoku) to distinguish from other hobobarai or imperfect religions. The white cords, being a longstanding color of purity is sourced into the orthodoxy professed in the Nichiren Shoshu religion.

Priests have long tassels because the long strings denote their role as teachers of dogma and doctrine. it is also believed to be used in their many rituals (Kito-kishi) that they do for the temple. Yes it is a line of distinction, but certainly considered to also be a "burden" because the long strings are additional weight on their Juzu. Because Juzu is considered a sacred tool or implement, it is wrapped in Fukusa or scarf-----another implement in "purifying" an object in Japanese culture. Because Juzu is also considered a reflection of ones journey to Buddhahood, it needs the eye-opening ceremony prescribed by the priesthood----activating its powers ***unique*** to its believer. Its not like the Catholic rosary that anyone and everyone can just buy in the store without formal, formal, formal consecration. Because the Juzu beads are painted in pigment/colors, either the Lotus Sutra/Gohonzon is used to consecrate it-----although Nichiren Shoshu just uses gohonzon while Nichiren Shu uses the Lotus sutra to "physically" bless their Juzu.

Regarding the style on the end of the balls, one commonly sees the pompom version and the woven "soccer" weave made of silk thread. If its a cheap juzu then its just the pompom style, if its more expensive then it is tufted/laced ball. This is just a minor consideration on the durability and luxury of the Juzu beads. In fact in Japan, it is not just the "soccer" weave that exists in Juzu, there are many other laced ornate designs on the woven ends of the Juzu ball ornaments. You just don't see them in American markets.

Today, the main reason why Nichiren Shoshu members don't appreciate seeing anyone rubbing juzu beads at their temples is because it is unmannered and crass, noisy and distracting when everyone is suppose to FOCUS on the gohonzon and built a private audience with the Joju gohonzon to overcome their karma. its just considered annoying/bad manners, in short. And anyone who does it is sure to be a topic of ridicule and criticism after the service.

Bottom line is, Nichiren Buddhism in Japan has many proper and improper behaviors that American foreigners will never accept or understand because of their crass and practical non-formal non-religious behavior. If you want a further example of this, try going to the Koyasan or Nembutsu temples, proper etiquette and no photography is certainly followed. Most foreigners have never been to Japan, but if you go to Japan and attend ANY temple service or shrine service or go to Japanese restaurants, you will find that there are much proper etiquette you must follow in that society----unless you want to be labeled as a rude, ignorant or simply a barbarian.

Hope this helps.

[narhwal90]

I agree with gohonzon on the distraction to others angle- when I started with the then Nichiren Shoshu in the late 80's there were quite a few other "western" members who rubbed their beads together a lot- and were urged to reduce the frequency and intensity. The amount of rubbing has been a lot less intrusive since, and remains so in the SGI since the 90's. Nowadays some rub their beads as described above- briefly at the start of gongyo or occasionally when recomposing focus. Thats an interesting detail wrt the fuzzy pompom vs soccer weave- I see both styles and my newest set I keep in the truck for meetings etc is the soccer weave. I'll look around for the tassel forms.. I've not made a point of noticing them before- thanks! Personally I do not rub them at all, instead try to use them as a tool to help keep my focus on gongyo/chanting- being mindful of the pressure of the palms.

[JazzIsTvRicky]

Been meaning to ask about this for some time. I've only attended a few SGI meetings. At the end of one of the meetings, they asked if I had any questions. I asked why some of them rubbed their hands together while chanting. What I mean is, when they had their hands in the prayer position, they would rub them together and it would make a "jangling" sound with the Juzu beads.

When I asked this question, everyone got a little nervous. They then told me that it's actually not a good thing to do, but there is no religious significance to it; it's just that sometimes your hands can get cold. I just noticed a lot of nervousness in the room that made me wonder….

Anyone have any idea what this is about? Thanks.

It has many different explanations according to who you ask. Nowhere in Shayamuni's teachings is this question addressed. Nor in Nichiren Daishonin's Doctrinal Writings.

"prayer beads ［数珠］ ( juzu): A circular string of beads held in the hands during Buddhist prayer or worship or when counting the number of recitations of a Buddha’s name or Buddhist incantations such as dhāranī (mystic formulas). The basic number of beads is 108, which is said to represent the number of earthly desires humans possess. The origin of prayer beads in Buddhism is uncertain. In Southern Buddhism, there is no tradition of using prayer beads, but in countries such as Tibet, Mongolia, China, Korea, and Japan, they have long been used as an implement essential to Buddhist practice." From The Soka Gakkai Dictionary of Buddhism.

"Six-Volume Writings, The ［六巻抄］ ( Rokkan-shō): A work by Nichikan, the twenty-sixth chief priest of Taiseki-ji temple and scholar of Nichiren’s teachings, completed in 1725. During the four hundred years after Nichiren’s death, various interpretations of his teachings were adopted by different Nichiren schools, and Nichikan held that the true meaning of Nichiren’s teachings had become obscured. He wrote this work to refute what he felt were serious misconceptions and to clarify the true meaning of Nichiren’s teachings. As the title indicates, it is a collection of six treatises:
(6) “The Three Robes of This School,” which defines the “three robes” as the traditional gray robe, the white surplice, and the prayer beads of the priests of the Fuji school, and explains their significance." From The Soka Gakkai Dictionary of Buddhism.

What is most important is the chanting of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo to 'The Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo' according to Nichiren. Prayer beads or not!

[illarraza]

Lengthy discourse on Nichiren Juzu beads... http://www.nichirenbuddhist.org/LearnBu ... Beads.html

Illarraza