Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby nichirenista » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:32 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
nichirenista wrote:At any rate, the point I was making was that this practice is not something invented in the US in the 20th century by SGI. It goes all the way back to Asia, and has been there for several centuries.

Had you made that clear, I would not have challenged your statement, but "always" and "throughout the Buddhist tradition" go further back than that, whether you use the words in the Nichiren forum or paint them on the wall of the nearest police station.

:namaste:
Kim


I'm not sure I understand this statement. Can you rephrase it? Thanks.
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby rory » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:46 am

Thanks for that Kim, I thought so, but am weak on Theravada practice:) If you either follow Theravada or TIbetan Buddhism you usually follow Yogacara philosophy where the bad karma resides in the alaya consciousness and it takes eons to rid yourself of it via purification practices, ridding yourself of evil thoughts, deeds etc...

This isn't the case either in the Avatamsaka and Tiantai schools; Tiantai via Zhiyi's famous understanding of the Lotus Sutra postulated Three-Thousand Worlds in One Though Moment - ichinen sanzen That means you cannot separate worldy benefits from spiritual ones. It's quite profound. There was a nice thread with Ven. Indrajala who explained a lot it started with someone asking if the Buddha could have evil thoughts (yes).
gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Kim O'Hara » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:25 am

nichirenista wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:
nichirenista wrote:At any rate, the point I was making was that this practice is not something invented in the US in the 20th century by SGI. It goes all the way back to Asia, and has been there for several centuries.

Had you made that clear, I would not have challenged your statement, but "always" and "throughout the Buddhist tradition" go further back than that, whether you use the words in the Nichiren forum or paint them on the wall of the nearest police station.

:namaste:
Kim


I'm not sure I understand this statement. Can you rephrase it? Thanks.

Sure ... take two:
If you had made that clear, I would not have challenged your statement that "[Stone] said that historically Buddhists in Asia have always viewed the fulfillment of spiritual and temporal needs as being on a continuum". The word "always" (here), and the phrase "throughout the Buddhist tradition" (which you quoted later), don't just mean "several centuries" and "within Nichiren". They mean "since the beginning of Buddhism" and "in all schools of Buddhism." And they always mean that, whether you're on a Nichiren forum or anywhere else.

Is that better?

:namaste:
Kim

(Edited for (extra) clarity.)
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby nichirenista » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:51 am

Yes, I understand now. The original sentence was the very definition of a run-on sentence. Then, the reference to a police station made it even more indecipherable for me. But thank you.
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Kim O'Hara » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:07 pm

nichirenista wrote:Yes, I understand now. The original sentence was the very definition of a run-on sentence. ... But thank you.

Glad to help. :smile:
I know this is :offtopic: but if you reckon my first attempt was bad try http://www.gavroche.org/vhugo/sentence.shtml
:rolleye:

:focus:
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:53 pm

nichirenista wrote:Stone writes in Original Enlightenment that the practice of "title exigis" (the belief that a book's entire content is summed up in its title) originated in China. Nichiren simply built on that. She also writes that he wasn't the first to chant the title of the Lotus Sutra. He was, however, the first to put it in a single-practice format. http://books.google.com/books/about/Ori ... O_KctXdecC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The practice of ”title exigis” originated in India, there are parts in the Lotus Sutra that point to it, where it is most found is the Mahaparinirvana sutra, the entire chapter 6 in the Nirvana Sutra is based on Nehan Odaimoku
, it is also said that all sutras flow into the Nirvana Sutra and the title of the Nirvana Sutra encompasses all sutras within its title.
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:40 pm

rory wrote:Thanks for that Kim, I thought so, but am weak on Theravada practice:) If you either follow Theravada or TIbetan Buddhism you usually follow Yogacara philosophy where the bad karma resides in the alaya consciousness and it takes eons to rid yourself of it via purification practices, ridding yourself of evil thoughts, deeds etc...

In Theravada, one at the first stage of enlightenment (the stream-enterer) has at most seven lives of samsaric existence before putting an end to suffering.

According to the Buddha's teachings in the Pali Canon, and I guess common to Tibetan Buddhism as well, there has been wandering in samsara since beginningless time, for incalculable eons. Is that what you're referring to?
Peace,
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby nichirenista » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:49 pm

Anais Nin's House of Incest is full of run-on sentences as well. That, plus the surrealist language and the underlying theme of abuse by one's father, can make the book quite a challenge to get through. But rest assured that as an English major, I can handle it. But, yes, as you say, this is off-topic. Run-on sentences about Buddhism with seemingly random references to police stations may be hard to decipher, but at least they are on-topic.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Incest
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby nichirenista » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:54 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:
nichirenista wrote:Stone writes in Original Enlightenment that the practice of "title exigis" (the belief that a book's entire content is summed up in its title) originated in China. Nichiren simply built on that. She also writes that he wasn't the first to chant the title of the Lotus Sutra. He was, however, the first to put it in a single-practice format. http://books.google.com/books/about/Ori ... O_KctXdecC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The practice of ”title exigis” originated in India, there are parts in the Lotus Sutra that point to it, where it is most found is the Mahaparinirvana sutra, the entire chapter 6 in the Nirvana Sutra is based on Nehan Odaimoku
, it is also said that all sutras flow into the Nirvana Sutra and the title of the Nirvana Sutra encompasses all sutras within its title.


Your original question was about where it said in the Lotus Sutra that you should chant it's title. My response was meant to impart that Nichiren himself was following a tradition that preceded him. It seems that your question was rhetorical as you already knew the answer.
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:59 pm

nichirenista wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
nichirenista wrote:Stone writes in Original Enlightenment that the practice of "title exigis" (the belief that a book's entire content is summed up in its title) originated in China. Nichiren simply built on that. She also writes that he wasn't the first to chant the title of the Lotus Sutra. He was, however, the first to put it in a single-practice format. http://books.google.com/books/about/Ori ... O_KctXdecC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The practice of ”title exigis” originated in India, there are parts in the Lotus Sutra that point to it, where it is most found is the Mahaparinirvana sutra, the entire chapter 6 in the Nirvana Sutra is based on Nehan Odaimoku
, it is also said that all sutras flow into the Nirvana Sutra and the title of the Nirvana Sutra encompasses all sutras within its title.


Your original question was about where it said in the Lotus Sutra that you should chant it's title. My response was meant to impart that Nichiren himself was following a tradition that preceded him. It seems that your question was rhetorical as you already knew the answer.


Yes it was :)
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Queequeg » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:35 am

Son of Buddha wrote:The practice of ”title exigis” originated in India, there are parts in the Lotus Sutra that point to it, where it is most found is the Mahaparinirvana sutra, the entire chapter 6 in the Nirvana Sutra is based on Nehan Odaimoku
, it is also said that all sutras flow into the Nirvana Sutra and the title of the Nirvana Sutra encompasses all sutras within its title.


Awesome. :applause:
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:49 am

Queequeg wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:The practice of ”title exigis” originated in India, there are parts in the Lotus Sutra that point to it, where it is most found is the Mahaparinirvana sutra, the entire chapter 6 in the Nirvana Sutra is based on Nehan Odaimoku
, it is also said that all sutras flow into the Nirvana Sutra and the title of the Nirvana Sutra encompasses all sutras within its title.


Awesome. :applause:


check out Chapter 26(Dharani) of the Lotus Sutra at the end of the chapter it teaches Odaimoku practice. ( cant find an only line translation to copy and paste sorry)
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Queequeg » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:22 am

I can't find any reference to chanting the title in the Dharani chapter either. Are you sure its that chapter?

Rereading chapter 6 of the MPNS, I can see where Zhiyi would have gotten the cue for title exegesis, but its only a germinal form in comparison to the his commentary on the Lotus Sutra's title. Still, thank you for that reference. Zhiyi borrowed tremendously from the MPNS.

The actual inspiration for the Daimoku in Nichiren practice as far as I know is actually pretty straight forward - Nichiren saw the popularity of the Nembutsu and substituted the Daimoku. He says as much in Rissho Ankoku Ron saying that Honen and the spread of Pure Land exclusivity paved the way for the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra. I'm not going to touch the Nembutsu practice in any depth, but Pure Land practice had long been incorporated in Tientai Buddhism as a means to quell the mind and overcome obstacles in meditation. Zhiyi never specified which Pure Land practice - from what I understand, it was only later Tientai patriarchs who emphasized Amidism. The idea with Pure Land practice is that by contemplating the Pure Land, one basically drowns out the obstacles. Part of doing it is to call the Buddha's name as a means of focusing one's attention. Daimoku basically takes this framework and reorients it to the Lotus Sutra.
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby rory » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:42 am

As someone who did Pure Land for a long time & I have made a vow to be born in Kannon's pure land of Mt. Potalaka, I can tell you that pre-Honen Pure Land practice for monks was contemplation and the contemplations came from the Contemplation Sutra. The contemplations are amazingly difficult and that was the point to unsettle the mind. Vocalizing was done but it was regarded as inferior and the lowest thing to do..which is why it was popular. I'm re-reading a very enjoyable biography of Jokei the erudite Hosso monk who was Honen's principal opponent and he decried the simple single low practice; preaching rather the Middle Way: sutra study, meditation, chanting, devotion etc...That's what I do. A holistic practice.
gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:59 am

Queequeg wrote:I can't find any reference to chanting the title in the Dharani chapter either. Are you sure its that chapter?

Rereading chapter 6 of the MPNS, I can see where Zhiyi would have gotten the cue for title exegesis, but its only a germinal form in comparison to the his commentary on the Lotus Sutra's title. Still, thank you for that reference. Zhiyi borrowed tremendously from the MPNS.

The actual inspiration for the Daimoku in Nichiren practice as far as I know is actually pretty straight forward - Nichiren saw the popularity of the Nembutsu and substituted the Daimoku. He says as much in Rissho Ankoku Ron saying that Honen and the spread of Pure Land exclusivity paved the way for the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra. I'm not going to touch the Nembutsu practice in any depth, but Pure Land practice had long been incorporated in Tientai Buddhism as a means to quell the mind and overcome obstacles in meditation. Zhiyi never specified which Pure Land practice - from what I understand, it was only later Tientai patriarchs who emphasized Amidism. The idea with Pure Land practice is that by contemplating the Pure Land, one basically drowns out the obstacles. Part of doing it is to call the Buddha's name as a means of focusing one's attention. Daimoku basically takes this framework and reorients it to the Lotus Sutra.

I'm reading from the Burton Watson translation so it might be a problem with translation
I take upholding of the mere name of the Lotus Sutra in this passage to mean the Daimoku (upholding of its title) I could be incorrect, and the translation might be a problem,what do you think.
Buddha said to the rakshasa daughters, "Excellent, excellent!
((((((If you can shield and guard those who accept and uphold the mere name of the Lotus Sutra, your merit will be immeasurable. ))))))
How much more so if you shield and guard those who accept and uphold it in its entirety, who offer alms to the sutra scrolls, flowers, incense, necklaces, powdered incense, paste incense, incense for burning, banners, canopies, music, who burn various kinds of lamps, lamps of butter oil, oil lamps, lamps of various fragrant oils, lamps of sumana flower oil, and lamps of utpala flower oil, and who in this manner offer hundreds and thousands of varieties of alms? Kunti, you and your attendants should shield and guard the teachers of the Law such as these!"

When [the Buddha] preached this Dharani chapter, sixty-eight thousand persons gained the truth of birthless-ness.


On the MPNS there are numerous sources for Daimoku practice in the sutra other than chapter six, chapter 6 is just the most obvious one. The MPNS is itself a "commentary" of the Lotus Sutra .
much of chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra runs on into the Nirvana Sutra chapter 9.

I'm trying to find 3000 realms in a single moment of life teachingd in the Lotus Sutra and MPNS when I find some quotes that I think are on the subject I'll post them for your guys opinions.
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:12 am

Ichinen Sanzen quotes from the Sutras
There will be no sense of having come or gone anywhere. All will be just as before, with nothing different. Only one who has himself crossed the ocean [of illusion] will be able to see that this Bodhisattva has put the 3,000 great-thousand worlds into a mustard seed and is back in his own abode again. O good man! Also, the Bodhisattva-mahasattva may enter into Great Nirvana and place the 3,000 great-thousand worlds into a pore of his skin, and yet the original place may ever be like this [may remain unchanged]. O good man! Also, the Bodhisattva-mahasattva may enter into Nirvana, cut off the 3,000 great-thousand Buddha-lands of all directions, place them on the point of a needle and strike the other Buddha-lands as though passing them through a jujube leaf, and the living beings therein would not entertain any thought of going or coming. Only one who is emancipated could see this and also the original place. Such is the case. O good man! Also, there could be a Bodhisattva-mahasattvawho abides in Great Nirvana and who cuts off the 3,000 great-thousand Buddha-lands and puts them on his right-hand palm and as in the case of the potter’s wheel throws them onto other mote worlds.

And
The life of the Tathagata is the longest and most superior of longest lives. His eternal Dharma is the unsurpassed of all eternal things.” Bodhisattva Kasyapa said again to the Buddha: “O World-Honoured One! How did you, the Tathagata, gain eternal life?” The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Kasyapa: “O good man! There are eight great rivers, which are 1) Ganges, 2) Yamuna, 3) Sarabhu, 4) Ajitavati, 5) Mahi, 6) Indus, 7) Pasu, and 8) Sita. All these eight rivers and other small rivers drain into the great ocean. O Kasyapa! All the great rivers of life of all people, heaven, earth and sky drain into the Tathagata’s sea of life. Hence, the length of life of the Tathagata is incalculable. Also, next, O Kasyapa! As an illustration: it is like the case of Lake Anavatapta, which gives rise to four rivers. The same with the Tathagata. He gives rise to all long life-spans (emphasis added). O Kasyapa! As an example: of all eternal things, that of space is the foremost. The same is the case with the Tathagata. He is the foremost of all eternal things.
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Re: Lotus Authenticity and Implications...

Postby Qianxi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:43 am

There's an English translation by Paul Swanson of Zhiyi's most extensive explanation of Ichinen Sanzen http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/en/files/201 ... 0_2013.pdf
Although the Ichinen Sanzen's 'three thousand' kinda echoes the common phrase 'three thousand great thousand worlds', the rationale Zhiyi gives is not to do with that, it's to do with the multiplication of various elements. Ten dharma realms (as listed chapter 19 of Lotus sutra) themselves each contain all others, so that's 100 dharma realms, x '10 suchnesses' (as listed in chapter 2 of lotus sutra), x three kinds of worlds (the worlds of the five skandhas, the world of sentient beings, and world of the lands. This is from Da Zhidu Lun) = 3000.
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