Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Mr. G » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:04 pm

illarraza wrote:That's one reason why Guru Yoga is a false religion and why we [the Kempon Hokke] not only criticize the Tibetian lineages but especially the Soka Gakkai.


And many say Nichiren was considered to be one of the most sectarian Buddhists in history. Interesting to see that sectarianism is still alive and well.

"Follow the Law not the person",


You don't realize that Tibetan Buddhists take a lot of time investigating teachers. It is no different than any other school of Buddhism.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:00 am

This is the Nichiren board; we're loyal to the teachings of this great bodhisattva; what do you expect to find Mr. G? I don't go over to the Tibetan boards and say such things. But we do here.

We've pointed out that the Lotus Sutra explicitly says to abandon other sutras and to only follow it. That's what we do. The Nirvana Sutra says to follow the Dharma not persons; that's what we do.

Call us sectarian, it's a mark that we're faithful to Nichiren Daishonin who followed the teachings of the Buddha Shakyamuni.

Guru-yoga goes against the teachings of the Lotus Sutra and the Nirvana Sutra. Mark and I prefer to follow the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha.
those who put their trust in men in red robes should rewatch the video of the the young Kalu rinpoche & his sufferings
gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Mr. G » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:13 am

rory wrote:This is the Nichiren board; we're loyal to the teachings of this great bodhisattva; what do you expect to find Mr. G? I don't go over to the Tibetan boards and say such things. But we do here.


In the Tibetan Buddhism forums we don't outright denigrate other teachings. Every school is part of the 9 yanas. Basically, as Tibetan Buddhists, we will never say (as has been said on this thread), Pure Land Buddhism is false, the Lotus Sutra is false, Tendai is false, etc.

We've pointed out that the Lotus Sutra explicitly says to abandon other sutras and to only follow it.


That is a Nichiren interpretation. Tendai does not believe that.

Call us sectarian, it's a mark that we're faithful to Nichiren Daishonin who followed the teachings of the Buddha Shakyamuni.


Believing strongly in one's chosen faith doesn't entail the need to bad mouth other schools. It's called tolerance.

Mark and I prefer to follow the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha.


So you're a Theravadan? :roll:

those who put their trust in men in red robes should rewatch the video of the the young Kalu rinpoche & his sufferings


That's a red herring. Tibetan Buddhists know that horrible things went on in some monastaries, but that doesn't mean all of them. And I reiterate that the majority of Tibetan Buddhists actually take the time to investgate their teachers and the teachings they espouse.
    How foolish you are,
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Nighthawk » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:52 pm

rory wrote:This is the Nichiren board; we're loyal to the teachings of this great bodhisattva; what do you expect to find Mr. G? I don't go over to the Tibetan boards and say such things. But we do here.

We've pointed out that the Lotus Sutra explicitly says to abandon other sutras and to only follow it. That's what we do. The Nirvana Sutra says to follow the Dharma not persons; that's what we do.

Call us sectarian, it's a mark that we're faithful to Nichiren Daishonin who followed the teachings of the Buddha Shakyamuni.

Guru-yoga goes against the teachings of the Lotus Sutra and the Nirvana Sutra. Mark and I prefer to follow the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha.
those who put their trust in men in red robes should rewatch the video of the the young Kalu rinpoche & his sufferings
gassho
Rory


Why does Nichiren have to go so far as to slander Honen? While Honen on the other hand always advised his followers to respect other traditions?

This is one of the reasons why Nicheren Buddhism is a huge turn off for me.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby UniversalWorthy » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:26 pm

Two things. I'm thinking that, normally, I might say, well these two individuals have experienced a very myopic view with buddhist sects or practices other than Nichiren sects and lay organizations. However, that would be very arrogant of me to a. suggest that this was the case just because the two individuals present a decidedly myopic understanding of the dharma and b. even if they were exposed to immeasurable number of dharmas, sects, and practices, they would still arrive at the same position of 'feeling superior' or self-identifying with Nichiren in such as way as to defy the common sense and reason of our present day. Why? Of course I cannot answer this, but it would be easy to say that they choose to base their own understanding of the variety of buddhist sects on their own immediate experiences (self centered).

I would be careful, though, to perceive Nichiren himself through the lens of individuals who feel that their school is 'superior' to another. This is merely a distraction. We know that Nichiren was, in his time, persecuted and pursued by the authorities whose aim in most cases was to execute him or punish him for his views. This would put Nichiren in a context that many of us cannot fathom. He was a human being. His reactions and forceful assertions regarding the other teachers of his time cannot be interpreted as simply he was an 'angry' man. If we were to out ourselves in this position today it would be nearly impossible to do so within the current context of global buddhism. Do buddhist clergy collude with some corrupt government forces in today's world, somewhere? Yes, but are the very same conditions met in this time ? A reform priest like Nichiren, confined to one island nation, seeking to propagate the Lotus Sutra by "living" the sutra and keeping it as a single practice. He had much competition and many enemies because of his scholarship and his desire to spread the dharma to all classes and, in fact, to all beings. He was vocal about it as well!
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:05 am

If you'd read the previous pages you'd see I only quoted only from the Lotus Sutra itself, not Nichiren Daishonin as I was dealing with Mahayana followers. Feel free to read the quotes and here is one:

Chapter of the Parable” (T.9.16a), “Only rejoicing to receive and keep the Great Vehicle Sutra Canon, not even receiving one verse of other Sutras”;
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... lotus3.htm


you may not like it; but we are doing as the sutra, the final teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha for the last 6 years of his life bids us do.
Vajrayana, who needs gurus and tantras; the gods and deities protect me now. as for Pure Land, the Lotus Sutra states if you follow the Lotus Sutra and want to be born in a Pure Land you will.
If you don't like Nichiren Buddhism, that's your choice you have free will and this is Mappo, I'm not surprised.
gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby catmoon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:51 am

Recent posts in this thread have really got me thinking. As a Buddhist I have a certain interest in the propagation of correct Dharma. Now, I'm a gelugpa of sorts, so does that mean I should run around correcting everyone else's "incorrect" Dharma? There's something very wrong with that idea. I might rapidly find myself throwing out all kinds of divisive ideas in all directions. There has to be a better way.

There are those who dilgently follow their path, attain some joy and peace from it, and become quite understandably enthusiastic about the path they are on. But it's only a small step from there to adopt the belief that "this constitutes proof that a given path is Correct and therefore the others must be Wrong". Or superior and inferior. Or Mahayana and Hinayana.

To accomodate the differences, we have separate forums here. It's only my view, but I think the dogma of each group should be allowed to reign unchallenged within their home forums. If you want to fight the battles of say, Nichiren vs Bon, or Theravada vs Mahayana even, it should be done in the Dharma Free for All section.

Members may wish to save this post for the day when I forget my own advice, which I surely will. :rolling:
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:13 am

rory wrote:If you'd read the previous pages you'd see I only quoted only from the Lotus Sutra itself, not Nichiren Daishonin as I was dealing with Mahayana followers. Feel free to read the quotes and here is one:

Chapter of the Parable” (T.9.16a), “Only rejoicing to receive and keep the Great Vehicle Sutra Canon, not even receiving one verse of other Sutras”;
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... lotus3.htm


you may not like it; but we are doing as the sutra, the final teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha for the last 6 years of his life bids us do.
Vajrayana, who needs gurus and tantras; the gods and deities protect me now. as for Pure Land, the Lotus Sutra states if you follow the Lotus Sutra and want to be born in a Pure Land you will.
If you don't like Nichiren Buddhism, that's your choice you have free will and this is Mappo, I'm not surprised.
gassho
Rory


Which Pure Land?
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby UniversalWorthy » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:49 pm

you may not like it; but we are doing as the sutra, the final teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha for the last 6 years of his life bids us do.


It's not really a question of whether I "like it or not." I also practice the buddhism prescribed by Nichiren and consider the Lotus Sutra to be the highest formulation and expression of this dharma.

Shakyamuni did not preach the sutra, literally. as buddhism is a vast tradition throughout the centuries, Mahayana sutras have evolved themselves. Many literary devices are used in what we refer to as "teachings" no matter the faith or tradition. This is fact. However, this really shouldn't matter. What should matter are the teachings as ultimately collected into the sutra. Nowhere in the Lotus Sutra does it say to denigrate and verbally abuse the practicioners of buddhism nor does it say to literally banish, burn, hide, revise, other formulations of the Buddha's teachings. It also does not advise one to attach themselves to the view that one is superior to another.

The highest expression within the Lotus Sutra is the opportunity for buddhahood for all sentient beings.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Jikan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:59 pm

UniversalWorthy wrote:
you may not like it; but we are doing as the sutra, the final teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha for the last 6 years of his life bids us do.


It's not really a question of whether I "like it or not." I also practice the buddhism prescribed by Nichiren and consider the Lotus Sutra to be the highest formulation and expression of this dharma.

Shakyamuni did not preach the sutra, literally. as buddhism is a vast tradition throughout the centuries, Mahayana sutras have evolved themselves. Many literary devices are used in what we refer to as "teachings" no matter the faith or tradition. This is fact. However, this really shouldn't matter. What should matter are the teachings as ultimately collected into the sutra. Nowhere in the Lotus Sutra does it say to denigrate and verbally abuse the practicioners of buddhism nor does it say to literally banish, burn, hide, revise, other formulations of the Buddha's teachings. It also does not advise one to attach themselves to the view that one is superior to another.

The highest expression within the Lotus Sutra is the opportunity for buddhahood for all sentient beings.


:good:
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:37 am

Universal Worthy;
which school are you with? I'm a layman in Kempon and don't perform shakubuku, that's usually the province of priests and I support my priest Rev. Tsuchiya going out into the streets and remonstrating with the Soka Gakkai in Japan for being corrupt, a cult. Nichiren certainly did so in his day and things haven't changed in our day.
I follow the Lotus Sutra in rejecting other sutras. So you don't believe this Dharma is from Shakyamuni, do you believe in the power of the sutra? Do you believe that the various gods & beings exist and will protect you? Do you believe you will really become a buddha or is this all a metaphor for you? Do you have faith.

Also you wrote nice pleasant words, but unsupported from either the Lotus Sutra or Nichiren Daishonin. I support my assertions with direct quotes from the LS and the gosho. Kempon does this so we stay true to the teaching and don't deviate or fall into guru cults.

Catmoon: thank you, I appreciate your post. I don't go to other forums such as Pure Land or Kagyu and say 'Nichiren Buddhism is best' I say so here and will defend it here or would in general Mahayana. I'm following and upholding the tenets of my school.

Son of Buddha; you can be born in any pure land it's in Ch 12 Devadatta chapter.
gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:50 am

[quote="illarraza"]A little off topic but in reply to Son of a Buddha:

TO:illarraza

My last post was removed becaused nichiren called you names so I will try to repost it but in a different manner,in this posting well pretrend nichiren isnt calling you names and I wont address the names nichiren is calling you,I will pretend the name calling isnt there in the passage and use the passage purely as a reference to show you that nichiren wants you to abandon all of the lotus sutra except the "1 chapter and 2 halves"

Nichirens goshos
(The object of devotion for observing the mind)

"ALL the teachings other than the "1 chapter and 2 halves" are hinayana in nature and erroneous.not only do they fail to lead to enlightenment,but they also lack the truth.Those who BELIEVE in them are (A BUNCH OF NAME CALLING)(after this nichiren tears into the lotus sutra hardcore)pointing out how you should abandon every chapter other than the "1 chapter and 2 halves)

so illarraza do you BELIEVE in what is written in chapter 3 of the lotus sutra???if you do look up my refernece to see what nichiren thinks about you.
do you BELIEVE that you are to get rid of ALL hinayana and ALL proovisional teachings???if so then abandon ALL of the lotus sutra as you have abandoned all the other sutras who are provisional.

nichiren clearly states that ALL the qoutes you posted from the Lotus sutra are not the truth,and are erroneous,and you should NOT BELIEVE in them and you should DISCARD them just like all the other sutras of the Lord Buddha you have already discarded.

AND TO RORY
the lotus sutra states that Boddhisattvas should renouce all intentions to be reborn into the pureland so if you follow this sutra then seek to be reborn into hell/earth/ghosts/or any where else so you can help other living beings.(Im currectly looking for the chapter and page to post it to you)

TO CATMOON
I edited nichirens vulgar namecalling of people so there shouldnt be any reason to have my post removed this time,I didnt tell people what nichiren thinks of them this time either,and opted for them to read that on their own.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby UniversalWorthy » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:59 pm

Rory- I am independent of any school and practice daily the daimoku prescribed by Nichiren. As for study, lately I have been attending Gelug teachings when I am able. As for "metaphors", no I do not lack faith that we are all really capable of attaining buddhahood in this lifetime, but this attainment is not locked in a prison of labels, language, and dogma so to dispute this way of teaching or that way of teaching based on literary devices and the context of history would be to miss the boat, so to speak. Our behavior as human beings matters greatly and that includes the six paramitas, though, Rory, you might take for granted that they are naturally meditated upon when reciting daimoku. To display confidence in one's method of practice is different than displaying arrogance and intolerance towards those who have not yet experienced the profound nature of the practice.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Jikan » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:41 pm

I'm interested in the claim that the Lotus Sutra rejects other sutras. Where is this claim made in the text?
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:29 am

Here we go straight from the Lotus Sutra; I've used this online translation for convenience, for personal use I use the Senchu Murano translation from Nichiren Shu.

Lotus Sutra
I forthrightly abandon expedience and only preach the Supreme Way.” (“Chapter of Expedience” 2 (T.9.10a))
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... lotus2.htm

Lotus Sutra Chapter 3 " A Parable"

If there be those who, with mind intent,
Seek the Buddha.s Sharira,
Or who likewise seek the Sutras,
And attaining them hold them atop their crowns,
Such people will never again
Resolve to seek other Sutras
Nor ever have the thought
To seek the writings of outside ways,
For people such as these,
You may speak it.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... lotus3.htm


“Chapter of the Parable” (T.9.16a), “Only rejoicing to receive and keep the Great Vehicle Sutra Canon, not even receiving one verse of other Sutras”;
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... lotus3.htm

In Chapter 15 "Welling from the Earth" The Bodhisattvas-Mahasattvas from other worlds wish to proclaim the Lotus Sutra but the Buddha Shakyamuni replies
it is the duty of the Bodhisattvas from under the earth.
" Stop! Good men, you do not need to protect and maintain this Sutra. Why not? Within my Saha World itself there are Bodhisattvas Mahasattvas equal in number to the sands of sixty thousand Ganges Rivers, each of whom has a retinue equal in number to the sands of sixty thousand Ganges Rivers. After my quiescence, all of them will protect, uphold, read, recite, and vastly proclaim this Sutra."
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... otus15.htm

And in Chapter 22 'The Trasmission" / "The Entrustment" The Buddha Shakyamuni tells the Bodhisattvas from Under the Earth to transmit this Dharma widley:
I have cultivated and practiced the rare Dharmas of anuttarasamyaksambodhi I now entrust them to all of you. You should receive, uphold, read, recite, and vastly proclaim this Dharma, causing all living beings to hear and understand it.
"In the future, if there is a good man or a good woman who believes in the Thus Come One's wisdom, you should expound the Dharma Flower Sutra to that person, causing the person to hear and understand and obtain the Buddha's wisdom.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... otus22.htm

So as you see these aren't my words or opinions they come straight from the sutra.
gassho
Rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:55 am

RORY RORY RORY RORY

you dont BELIEVE any of those things you posted about the Lotus sutra do you???
you know Nichiren says to not Beleive in chapter 3,that it is not true and it is erroneous(also chapter 3 is talking about EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE SUCH AS THIS IT IS PERMISSIABLE TO PREACH TOO) these are examples of people nothing more they are not orders(and by Nichirens orders chapter 3 of the Lotus sutra is PROVISIONAL and should be abandoned so why post a chapter to refute provisional teachings when the chapter you are posting urself is considered provisional and should NOT be BELIEVED IN,for its hinayana,erroneous,and not the truth(nichirens statement concering the lotus sutra chapter 3:)

also you posted that I will now discard expedients and teach the unsurpassewd way
AGAIN cheack ALL the translations of this passage you will see the Buddha is refering to simply at this time and moment he will not teach in expedeints BUt will just tell you the straight up truth(if you read teh context he doesnt teach them in expedeints but lays out the truth plain and clear and many monks get up and walk out for it.THEN he goes back to preaching in expedeints for the rest of ther sutra.

do you get what Im says???
its like this:im not going to tell you with examples im just going to straight up tell you what it is without any expedeints(MONKS WALK OUT)(goes back to teaching expedeints)till chapter 16 then REVEALS no expedeints again.

also when the Buddha says they are PORVISIONAL teachings he isnt saying to get rid of them what he is saying is those sutras showed you a unfinished teaching and the teachings after the PROVISIONAL are the teachings which are complete(Tathagatagarbha)(one vehicle)(eternal Buddha"true self")which is the sutras that are taught after the Lotus sutra.

peace and love.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:03 am

Dear Son of Buddha;
if you wish to discuss Nichiren, kindly quote the text and list the gosho so we can have a fruitful conversation.

Here is Nichiren on the Lotus Sutra:

"Especially among the twenty-eight chapters the excellent and auspicious ones are the 'Chapter of Expedience' and the 'Chapter of the Measure of the Life Span.' The remaining chapters are branches and leaves. So among your constant works is to read the prose lines of the 'Chapter of Expedience' and the prose lines of the 'Chapter of the Measure of the Life Span'" (Gassui gosho, STN, v. 1, 290) (Eng: Letter on Menstruation)

This is the normal practice: chanting the prose portions of Chapter 2 and Chap 16 +daimoku that most Nichiren sects perform at their altars. We then study the Lotus Sutra.

"Manjushri said, 'in the midst of the sea I have only constantly proclaimed and preached the Sublime Dharma Flower Sutra." Ch 12 Devadatta.
www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/resources/s ... otus12.htm

As for your assertion that the entire Lotus Sutra is an expedient, please quote some authority, perhaps Zhiyi, or Dengyo Daishi etc, so it is just not mere opinion.
with gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby UniversalWorthy » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:34 pm

Son Of Buddha,

I can tell you now with certainty that you will be unable to get any constructive debate with fundamentalist-literalists. This will always be the way and we feel compassion for them just as ourselves.

For example, perhaps something occurred in their lives that causes them to seek something they can control or some authoritative text or figure to seek out. We have to understand that and respect that.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:19 pm

I suggest you read this thread in the Sutra Studies forum "Are Sutras meant to be taken literally"
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6356

oddly enough the various Mahayanists there agree that yes, they are.

To support an argument do post from the learned great Masters T'ien T'ai (Chih-I, Zhiyi), or other T'ien T'ai masters such as Saicho (Dengyo Daichi) etc...otherwise it's just opinion. And really that's the descent into Ikedaism - the cult of personality,
gassho
Rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby UniversalWorthy » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:11 pm

Rory,

Actually, that is a good thread. Thank you very much for leading me to it.

A couple of things. There is a mid-point between the two extremes of taking the various sutras and commentaries literally and just taking them as fairy tales. We can read them with the mind of faith (the ox which drives the cart) that both discerns with reason and experiences the weight of the metaphors as intended. It doesn't have to be one way or the other.

The Lotus Sutra itself is not an epic in the sense of the mythic histories of ancient cultures, yet it contains very advanced teaching tool featuring parables, analogies, repetition, and other literary devices. Think of it, in one way, as a great stupa in the Mahayana tradition.

As for "Ikedaism" that you mention, I'm not sure what that is or how that entered into this argument, sounds personal to you and like an opinion :smile:
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