Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Queequeg » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:32 pm

Jechan wrote: SGI is a cancer that is destroying Buddhism.


Oh, SGI is not the only carcinogen, and not even one of the worst. The Body of the Buddha is stage IV because of myriad causes. If the Lotus Sutra is to be believed, teaching even a phrase of the Lotus Sutra brings immeasurable benefit. If that's the case, Soka Gakkai might be a very powerful chemo-therapy.

Me thinks the cancer might have something to do with that extremely difficult to root out Primordial Nescience. But I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I only play one on discussion forums.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby dude » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:43 pm

That's going too far.
Last edited by dude on Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Jikan » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:53 pm

dude wrote:That's going too far.
If Jochan's post isn't a violation of the rules, what does "no bad mouthing other sects" mean?


Hi dude,

Please review our Terms of Service. It includes reporting procedures for posts that may be offensive. It will direct our moderators to review the thread. Here it is:

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Thanks.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Jechan » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:01 pm

dude wrote:That's going too far.


The topic of this thread is "soka gakai Criticism".

I criticised that organisation in my own words and summarised what the majority of criticisms on this thread have wanted to say.
It is nowhere near "going too far"...

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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby rory » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:43 am

as Jechan says; that's the title of the thread and SGI is infamous for its corrupt dealings in Japanese politics; it's a neo-buddhist cult that focuses on Ikeda not the Buddha nor even Nichiren.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Myoho-Nameless » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:39 am

and don't forget they sacrifice virgins to Satan and bathe in the resulting blood. All to make sure Ash Ketchum remains in Valhalla where he belongs.

but seriously.....I am sure there are some people here who would not doubt that. I feel like the sangha the world over is in a sorry state. though perhaps its just same ole same ole.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.-The Sith Code
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Masaru » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:53 am

Seriously, SGI is just organized religion. When it comes to orthodoxy they're about as far flung as the Mormons are from the Christian mainstream, but they really don't do anything out of the ordinary for a religious organization.
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Jechan » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:42 pm

A great piece about how sgi is nothing but a heretical cult.
From an anonymous author, but every cringe worthy detail rings true.

http://markrogow.blogspot.jp/2013/12/th ... s.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Jikan » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:11 pm

This conversation is becoming uncivil. I recognize that the thread itself is dedicated to criticism of a particular organization (if memory serves, there is more than one thread dedicated to praising this same organization, in the interest of fairness); it's not so easy to discuss these criticisms even-handedly, accurately, and with evidence. It can be done, however.

I'd like to ask those who claim that SGI is a cult to give some definition of a cult generally (there are several that scholars use), and to show with evidence how SGI's characteristics correspond to those of a cult generally. Further, if SGI is a cult, what kind of cult is it? Not all cults are made the same way, nor do they work the same.

I'm asking because it's easy to put these words out, words like "cult," but it's more useful for people who really want to know something if we give them something more concrete and specific.

I put the same challenge to those who would like to rebut these kinds of criticisms.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Myoho-Nameless » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:58 am

Now don't take this the wrong way, but if this is your definition of uncivil, than there are other threads that should have been locked way before they were. This is....so very tame. Maybe I have been through internet war zones, but I doubt it.


All religions are "cults", I would suggest the claim "the SGI is/is not a cult" not be used for that reason. use an adjective like "destructive cult" or something then talk about why they are destructive. Definitions can be tricky, and dictionaries seldom helpful.


My personal stance on the SGI is neutral.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.-The Sith Code
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby rory » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:36 am

I think we're all fine here Jikan, there is a tendency with DW to over-police discussions. Nichiren buddhists are not delicate flowers and can take a sprited discussion; just look at the life of Nichiren!

As said all religions are cults; the word comes from the Latin 'cultus' = cultivation, culture, worship and Roman polytheists modern and ancient call themselves 'cultores'. Romans had cults devoted to various deities. SGI is a cult, in that it revolves around Daisuku Ikeda not the Eternal Buddha nor Nichiren. Basically it is a neo-buddhist prosperity cult. Its good aspects are how they've done outreach and are very inclusive and taught people all over the world to chant Daimoku; the bad political corruption via Komeito, eliminating the Buddha and Nichren, telling people if they leave bad karma will result...a form of religious blackmail.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby dude » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:30 am

Here are a few broad definitions to ponder :

A cult coercively demands absolute loyalty to the top leader.
A cult demands unquestioning belief in doctrine.
A cult maintains that all outside the cult are the bad guys.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby shaunc » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:03 am

Jikan wrote:This conversation is becoming uncivil. I recognize that the thread itself is dedicated to criticism of a particular organization (if memory serves, there is more than one thread dedicated to praising this same organization, in the interest of fairness); it's not so easy to discuss these criticisms even-handedly, accurately, and with evidence. It can be done, however.

I'd like to ask those who claim that SGI is a cult to give some definition of a cult generally (there are several that scholars use), and to show with evidence how SGI's characteristics correspond to those of a cult generally. Further, if SGI is a cult, what kind of cult is it? Not all cults are made the same way, nor do they work the same.

I'm asking because it's easy to put these words out, words like "cult," but it's more useful for people who really want to know something if we give them something more concrete and specific.

I put the same challenge to those who would like to rebut these kinds of criticisms.



As I understand it the main difference between a cult & a religion is that a cult encourages it's members to withdraw from general society as much as possible. A religion on the other hand encourages it's members to go out into society & to try & make a positive difference.
In this respect I would say that SGI is not a cult. The Ikeda worship is probably not too much different than a lot of other religions are with their leader although I'm not a fan of leader worship.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Myoho-Nameless » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:21 pm

Leader worship is all too common, however it can get worse than Ikeda, guru personality cults are sort of a mainstay of contemporary Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism and also to some degree the western Zen community, and has even lead to sexual misconduct and even outright sexual abuse in some cases.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.-The Sith Code
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby rory » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:32 pm

Myoho-Nameless wrote:Leader worship is all too common, however it can get worse than Ikeda, guru personality cults are sort of a mainstay of contemporary Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism and also to some degree the western Zen community, and has even lead to sexual misconduct and even outright sexual abuse in some cases.


I agree with all of the above Myoho-Nameless; Ikedism is relatively benign but that doesn't make it okay...and especially Nichiren buddhism doesn't need to depend on a personality since the Dharma through the Daimoku is so readily available to everyone at a free price:)
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:47 pm

Myoho-Nameless wrote:guru personality cults are sort of a mainstay of contemporary...Tibetan Buddhism

Apparently ignorant bigotry is sort of a mainstay of contemporary Nichiren Buddhism.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Myoho-Nameless » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:55 am

"Mainstay" may have been harsh, but it happens, its only human.

Pointing out faults is not bigotry, I do not have anything against TB. As far as Buddhist material culture goes its some of the best Buddhism on the market.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:35 am

Myoho-Nameless wrote:"Mainstay" may have been harsh, but it happens, its only human.

Pointing out faults is not bigotry, I do not have anything against TB. As far as Buddhist material culture goes its some of the best Buddhism on the market.

Well, I don't have anything against ignorant bigotry, it happens, it's only human.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Myoho-Nameless » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:18 am

Thats.....childish. Perhaps if you do not like Nichiren Buddhism so much, you should frequent other sub forums, its rude to barge in and fart on people's butsudans. we were discussing something that makes sense in our own nichiren buddhist context. My first exposure of Buddhists outside of the internet was at a TB center and they were very courteous. If my impression of TB is incorrect and there is absolutely no guru worship and sexual abuse, do tell me. It is probably not good to just childishly argue pointlessly in a bitter, snarky, unproductive way. This is indicative of someone who just wants to argue, and in a fashion not better than "I know you are, but what am I?", and considering the recent banter on this thread....I feel like I need my tinfoil hat on because it almost seems like someone with a ahh...bigotry of nichiren buddhism just wants the thread locked and this sub community sabotaged. Its a conspiracy. :spy:

I really was sorry about using the word "mainstay". There is a difference between "it happens" and "its a mainstay". And with the topic at hand, clearly there are many people, myself included, who believe that it happens in Nichiren Buddhism too.

Most Honorable sir/ma'am

Please consider this a heartfelt attempt to bury whatever hatchet you have against me (the damage NB's reputation to you may have is not my concern, we have a reputation and I can live with that, I am a furry, I do not care what other people think, and I have lost the right to tell other people their hobbies and interests are strange), whilst still saying what must be said. in the words of the Koran, "you have your religion, and I have mine". :namaste:

lets be careful, because holding grudges is only human too, and its not helpful to anyone.

-----------------------------------------------------------
In an attempt to avoid the nanny state level of "modding" done by the mods here, I will ask something more on topic

To my knowledge, the SGI was once ambitious enough to say that by year XXXX they want to convert one third of the world. Crazy. Is that a fact? they pressured people to bring in new members, and I heard stories of young women telling young men "you want to go to a nudist meeting"? only to later have to be "honest" and say "no no I meant a BUDDHIST meeting!"

is shakabuku at any cost worth it? or are these slanderous lies?
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.-The Sith Code
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Postby Masaru » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:30 am

dude wrote:Here are a few broad definitions to ponder :

A cult coercively demands absolute loyalty to the top leader.
A cult demands unquestioning belief in doctrine.
A cult maintains that all outside the cult are the bad guys.


The Catholic Church?
    Pope
    Check
    Check
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

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