I'm sure this has been asked before...

I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby DiamondSutra » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:12 am

What chapters of the lotus sutra are read most often By Nichiren Buddhists?
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby rory » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:38 am

Ch 2- Expedient Devices and Chapter 16 - the Lifespan of the Buddha. My sect when they read from the Lotus Sutra chant ch. 21 Jinriki, The Spiritual Powers of the Tathagata.
Here's a handy link to the online Lotus Sutra:
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... ntents.htm
gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby DiamondSutra » Tue May 06, 2014 7:08 am

Are those the chapters contained in the sgi books titled liturgy of nichiren buddhism ? The ones here
http://bookstore.sgi-usa.org/category_s/17.htm
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby rory » Tue May 06, 2014 8:11 am

Yes, that's those two. If you have any questions just ask:)
gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby DiamondSutra » Tue May 06, 2014 9:33 am

Thanks.
I'll take you up on it, is the universal gate chapter not read by nichiren buddhists? I mean surely when you read the whole thing, but what about on it's own?
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby DiamondSutra » Tue May 06, 2014 9:54 am

"Ch 2- Expedient Devices and Chapter 16 - the Lifespan of the Buddha. My sect when they read from the Lotus Sutra chant ch. 21 Jinriki, The Spiritual Powers of the Tathagata."

Why those chapters in particular?
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby markatex » Tue May 06, 2014 10:22 pm

We chant the Universal Gate (Kanzeon) chapter in Nichiren Shu, in addition to the ones cited above.
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby rory » Fri May 09, 2014 3:28 am

Diamond Sutra;
Ch 2 contains the essence of ichinen-sanzen 3 thousand thoughts in one thought moment and Chapter 16 is about the Eternal Buddha. These are the basis of Tiantai philosophy and that of Nichiren Shonin. My sect chants JInriki Ch. 21 as it reveals that the Eternal Buddha entrusts the Dharma to Bodhisattva Jogyo of whom Nichiren is a reincarnation.

Sure anyone can read the Lotus Sutra at home and liberal sects like Nichiren Shu I'm sure are find chanting it at a service, I know Tendai does, but the explanation given to me is that Kannon is already a protector of the Lotus Sutra and it probably can be seen as a Pure Land practice too (as Kannon has her own pure land on Mt. Potalaka)
with gassho
Rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby DiamondSutra » Fri May 16, 2014 6:12 am

Solo.. more questions....
What about the three jewels in Nichiren Buddhism?
Is there a refuge ceremony? A refuge verse?
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby markatex » Sat May 17, 2014 2:22 am

DiamondSutra wrote:Solo.. more questions....
What about the three jewels in Nichiren Buddhism?
Is there a refuge ceremony? A refuge verse?


Yes, there's a jukai ceremony. The three refuges (speaking from a Nichiren Shu perspective) are the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni, the Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren Shonin (who represents the sangha jewel).
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby Queequeg » Fri May 23, 2014 9:46 pm

Not all Nichiren Buddhists take refuge in the Three Jewels - and there does seem to be doctrinal basis for this. In the broadest sense, it seems to be founded in the teachings on Perfect and Immediate Awakening taught in the Lotus Sutra as explained by Zhiyi (Tientai/Tendai). It seems to be the same basis on which Saicho (Dengyo) established the precepts platform at Mt. Hiei.

In short, in chanting the Daimoku, one is literally "taking refuge" in the True Aspect of Reality. As the Lotus Sutra reads (paraphrasing), "Enter the room of the Tathagata, wear the robes of the Tathagata, and take the Seat of the Tathagata." One is not an outsider looking in on AnnuttaraSamyakSambodhi needing guidance on the way, but rather one immediately enters into the awakening upon "hearing the name" and the difference between the beginner and the Buddha is a matter of depth of awakening only. We are, as is, without changing anything about us from time immemorial, manifestation of the Sublime Dharma, even in our ignorance (which irreducibly appears mutually along with the Buddha's awakening).Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, even the boundless, timeless aspects of the Three Jewels, is viewed to be derivative of the Daimoku, even distracting from the goal of the practice of the Buddha taught in the Lotus Sutra. In the Kitayama lineage (of Nichiren Shu), instead of refuge in the Three Jewels, one expresses devotion (Namu) to the Three Great Secret Laws - the Gohonzon, the Sanctuary, and the Daimoku. In terms of awakening, the Three Great Secret Laws are all that is required for full blown awakening, and even these three are actually trifurcation of the One Vehicle, NamuMyohoRengeKyo.

This probably sounds totally foreign to most Buddhists. I don't know if this explains anything, but the Perfect Teaching is sort of Quantum Dharma (as opposed to Newtonian Dharma of the Pre Lotus teachings) and without understanding how it stands in contrast to pre Lotus teachings, its difficult to reconcile (but then, if you know the Lotus Sutra, you know that its explanation of Expedient Means is the means of reconciling all the various Buddhist teachings). Linear logic, or even dualistic logic is abandoned in favor of the complete integration of relative and absolute into a mutually inclusive Buddha Nature.

Anyway, the practice of not reciting the refuges in at least some Nichiren traditions is not the utter rejection of Pre Lotus Buddhism that some people think it is. Much more nuanced that that - right in line with Nichiren's nuanced criticism of non Lotus Sutra Buddhism.
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby Queequeg » Fri May 23, 2014 10:10 pm

rory wrote: Ch 2 contains the essence of ichinen-sanzen 3 thousand thoughts in one thought moment and Chapter 16 is about the Eternal Buddha. These are the basis of Tiantai philosophy and that of Nichiren Shonin.


Not quite sure that explanation is accurate. Both chapter 2 and 16 explain ichinen sanzen. Chapter 2, IIRC, explains the theory while 16 explains the reality. Its the explanation of the Buddha's life span that explains the actual scope and reality of ichinen sanzen. Without chapter 16, the Lotus Sutra may be relatively superior to pre Lotus teachings, but its not until the 16th chapter that the teaching of the Lotus Sutra is explained to be absolute - utterly different from Pre Lotus teachings.

I may be misremembering.
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby westcountry » Thu May 29, 2014 6:00 pm

Yeah in Nichiren Shoshu we recite the prose sections from the 2nd and 16th Chapters. Generally the English translation used is the Burton Watson one. I do like the Hurvitz one as well though :reading:
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby illarraza » Sat May 31, 2014 12:41 am

Queequeg wrote:Not all Nichiren Buddhists take refuge in the Three Jewels - and there does seem to be doctrinal basis for this. In the broadest sense, it seems to be founded in the teachings on Perfect and Immediate Awakening taught in the Lotus Sutra as explained by Zhiyi (Tientai/Tendai). It seems to be the same basis on which Saicho (Dengyo) established the precepts platform at Mt. Hiei.

In short, in chanting the Daimoku, one is literally "taking refuge" in the True Aspect of Reality. As the Lotus Sutra reads (paraphrasing), "Enter the room of the Tathagata, wear the robes of the Tathagata, and take the Seat of the Tathagata." One is not an outsider looking in on AnnuttaraSamyakSambodhi needing guidance on the way, but rather one immediately enters into the awakening upon "hearing the name" and the difference between the beginner and the Buddha is a matter of depth of awakening only. We are, as is, without changing anything about us from time immemorial, manifestation of the Sublime Dharma, even in our ignorance (which irreducibly appears mutually along with the Buddha's awakening).Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, even the boundless, timeless aspects of the Three Jewels, is viewed to be derivative of the Daimoku, even distracting from the goal of the practice of the Buddha taught in the Lotus Sutra. In the Kitayama lineage (of Nichiren Shu), instead of refuge in the Three Jewels, one expresses devotion (Namu) to the Three Great Secret Laws - the Gohonzon, the Sanctuary, and the Daimoku. In terms of awakening, the Three Great Secret Laws are all that is required for full blown awakening, and even these three are actually trifurcation of the One Vehicle, NamuMyohoRengeKyo.

This probably sounds totally foreign to most Buddhists. I don't know if this explains anything, but the Perfect Teaching is sort of Quantum Dharma (as opposed to Newtonian Dharma of the Pre Lotus teachings) and without understanding how it stands in contrast to pre Lotus teachings, its difficult to reconcile (but then, if you know the Lotus Sutra, you know that its explanation of Expedient Means is the means of reconciling all the various Buddhist teachings). Linear logic, or even dualistic logic is abandoned in favor of the complete integration of relative and absolute into a mutually inclusive Buddha Nature.

Anyway, the practice of not reciting the refuges in at least some Nichiren traditions is not the utter rejection of Pre Lotus Buddhism that some people think it is. Much more nuanced that that - right in line with Nichiren's nuanced criticism of non Lotus Sutra Buddhism.


There is no doctrinal basis for a Nichiren Buddhist failing to take refuge in the Three Treasures of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism: The Law of Namu Myoho renge kyo; Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra; and the Sangha led by Nichiren Daishonin. In Nichiren's writings there are nearly fifty references to the "Three Treasures". He considered them to be one of the Four Debts of Gratitude [the other three are the debt we owe to our parents, to all living beings or specifically to our teacher, and to one's sovereign or country]. Taking refuge in the Three Treasures is necessary but insufficient, according to Nichiren.

Illarraza
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby Queequeg » Sat May 31, 2014 10:04 pm

illarraza wrote:There is no doctrinal basis for a Nichiren Buddhist failing to take refuge in the Three Treasures of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism: The Law of Namu Myoho renge kyo; Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra; and the Sangha led by Nichiren Daishonin. In Nichiren's writings there are nearly fifty references to the "Three Treasures". He considered them to be one of the Four Debts of Gratitude [the other three are the debt we owe to our parents, to all living beings or specifically to our teacher, and to one's sovereign or country]. Taking refuge in the Three Treasures is necessary but insufficient, according to Nichiren.

Illarraza


Mark,

There's actually nothing in Nichiren's writings about refuge in the three jewels being an essential practice of the Lotus Sutra.

The only essential practice is chanting the Daimoku. Period. Everything else, so long as it conforms to the Daimoku, is a supplementary practice.

While Nichiren taught the four debts of gratitude, (one's debt to living beings, one's parents, the ruler, and the three treasures), he never actually taught, as far as the surviving writings show, that one should take refuge as part of one's daily practice.

To be clear, in not taking refuge in the three treasures as a regular practice, this does not entail a rejection of this practice. As I wrote, devotion to the Three Great Secret Laws is done instead. The emphasis in practice is different. There is no problem - The three treasures are really one treasure, differentiated and distinguished as an expedient.

As for Nichiren being the leader of the eternal sangha, as far as I know there is no textual basis for that assertion. I'm open to edification.

Matthew
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby Queequeg » Sat May 31, 2014 10:17 pm

illarraza wrote:[the other three are the debt we owe to our parents, to all living beings or specifically to our teacher, and to one's sovereign or country].
Illarraza


The debt to living beings, according to Nichiren, is because they enable us to carry out the practice of conversion, not the teacher. I don't know where you get that from.

I'm sorry to pick on you, Mark, but you go out of your way to antagonize everyone, insisting on being such a literalist, yet you don't get it right yourself.
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby illarraza » Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:48 pm

Concerning taking refuge in the Three Treasures, Nichiren writes [quoting the Nirvana Sutra]:

“If there are those who possess differing ideas concerning the three treasures, then truly you should know that these people can no longer hope to take refuge in, or rely upon, the three pure treasures. They will never gain benefit from any of the precepts, and in the end, they will fail to obtain the fruits of the voice-hearer, the cause-awakened one, or the bodhisattva.”

It is clear Nichiren is referring to the benefit gained from taking refuge in the Three Treasures of True Buddhism: The Law of Namu Myoho renge kyo; Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra; and the Sangha lead by Jogyo.

Illarraza
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby illarraza » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:20 pm

four debts of gratitude [四恩] (Jpn shi-on ) The debts owed to one's parents, to all living beings, to one's sovereign, and to the three treasures of Buddhism. These four are set forth in the Contemplation on the Mind-Ground Sutra. The definition of the four debts of gratitude varies some-what according to the source. The Meditation on the Correct Teaching Sutra defines them as the debts owed to one's father, to one's mother, to the Thus Come One or Buddha, and to the teacher of the Law. In his work The Four Debts of Gratitude, Nichiren (1222-1282) refers to the four debts of gratitude described in the Contemplation on the Mind-Ground Sutra. In On Repaying Debts of Gratitude, he lists the four debts of gratitude as the debts owed to one's father and mother, to one's teacher, to the three treasures, and to one's sovereign. -- SGI dictionary

Illarraza respectfully disagreeing with your analysis of my deficient understanding on this matter or any matter regarding the Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren. Why? Because I have faith in the teachings of the Daishonin, all the teachings not merely those that I think will resonate with others.
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Re: I'm sure this has been asked before...

Postby Queequeg » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:59 pm

Mark, you wrote:
to all living beings or specifically to our teacher


I am going to pick on you using your own MO. You insist on the record, so what does the record say? Not what you write. This is you putting words in Nichiren's mouth. He does not say that "living beings" actually specifically refers to one's teacher. This formulation substituting one's teacher for living beings seems to be Nichiren's formulation. Not that its wrong or right. But just give it a break when you get it wrong. You don't accept the retreat into a profession of faith by others, why should you be held to a different standard?

Its also worth a chuckle that you rely on the dictionary of Buddhism published by those people you can't find anything positive about.

illarraza wrote:Concerning taking refuge in the Three Treasures, Nichiren writes [quoting the Nirvana Sutra]:

“If there are those who possess differing ideas concerning the three treasures, then truly you should know that these people can no longer hope to take refuge in, or rely upon, the three pure treasures. They will never gain benefit from any of the precepts, and in the end, they will fail to obtain the fruits of the voice-hearer, the cause-awakened one, or the bodhisattva.”

It is clear Nichiren is referring to the benefit gained from taking refuge in the Three Treasures of True Buddhism: The Law of Namu Myoho renge kyo; Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra; and the Sangha lead by Jogyo.

Illarraza


This passage from the Nirvana sutra concerns people who deny the eternal nature of the triratna. If they deny this, then they are cut off from the correct teaching. That is what this section of the Nirvana Sutra is expounding.

Again, Nichiren does not state anywhere in his writings that taking refuge in the triratna is a necessity to practice the Lotus Sutra and he certainly never wrote what you say he "clearly" meant by quoting this passage. In fact, Nichiren compared his teaching to that of Never Disparaging. ND lived at a time and place where even the name of the triratna was not known, and yet that practice was the cause of Shakyamuni's ultimate awakening.

Sorry, Mark, in this case, you are telling people what you have set your mind on, not what Nichiren's writings actually say.

I'm not letting you off easy because this is what you dish out to others. Youre contributions to the sangha have been significant over the years, but sometimes its just too much and too far for no ostensible purpose except you want to criticize. Stop causing so much grief in the sangha.
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