Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism

[Astus]

Yes, I've read some of the testimonials, although my favourite is their warning at the start.

Have you noticed that the mask is $150 for disciples? You can also get buddha statues (enlivened - like a golem?) for mere $360.

But what about relics, blessed rosaries and scarves, mummies, statues, etc.? They're said to be powerful things.

[Jikan]

I think I'm less skeptical about the claims of institutional Vajrayana lineages than Astus is. I don't think it's possible to put projects like this, or Aro gTer, or the Mahajyra people, in the same category as Shingon or Nyingma for instance.

[Astus]

I think I'm less skeptical about the claims of institutional Vajrayana lineages than Astus is. I don't think it's possible to put projects like this, or Aro gTer, or the Mahajyra people, in the same category as Shingon or Nyingma for instance.

I think the emphasis is on institutional. These small (or not so small) groups lack the institutional system that the "old churches" have. But besides that I find their ways of presentation and spreading similar to those groups (not necessarily Vajrayana related) that are now the great institutions. Just think how many schools started as unorthodox sects with questionable practices from India to Japan.

[Seishin]

But what about relics, blessed rosaries and scarves, mummies, statues, etc.? They're said to be powerful things.

They might very well be powerful things for the Vajrayana Buddhist. I couldn't say... but I don't like how they are pushing these Buddhist practices as some kind of cure-all magic formula, for the princely some of $***.

[Malcolm]

I think I'm less skeptical about the claims of institutional Vajrayana lineages than Astus is. I don't think it's possible to put projects like this, or Aro gTer, or the Mahajyra people, in the same category as Shingon or Nyingma for instance.

I think the emphasis is on institutional. These small (or not so small) groups lack the institutional system that the "old churches" have. But besides that I find their ways of presentation and spreading similar to those groups (not necessarily Vajrayana related) that are now the great institutions. Just think how many schools started as unorthodox sects with questionable practices from India to Japan.

I know a whole crew of people who know this guy personally, who were his students for quite a long period of time. He is not a scrupulous person.

N

[Astus]

I know a whole crew of people who know this guy personally, who were his students for quite a long period of time. He is not a scrupulous person.

Could you share some stories or other information for those who are searching on this teacher and his group on the web?

[tktru]

A fascinating new Chinese derived Esoteric and Zen group: http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html

Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.

Huiguo did not go to Japan with Kukai. Huiguo died. This is why Kukai returned to Japan earlier than originally planned.

Of course, this bears repeating, but Jake is right; Huiguo never went to China with Kūkai; according to Kūkai's account (source being Hakeda's: Major Works):

On the night of the full moon in the twelth month of the same year Hui-Kuo purified himself in a ritual bath, lay on his right side and, making the mudra (hand gesture) of Mahavairocana Buddha, breathed his last. Kūkai, representing the disciples and followers of Hui-kuo, wrote the epitaph for his late master's tomb.

[remm]

The guy calls himself a "Living Buddha". This has fraud written all over it.

[Astus]

The guy calls himself a "Living Buddha". This has fraud written all over it.

"Living buddha" is the same as "tulku".

[remm]

The guy calls himself a "Living Buddha". This has fraud written all over it.

"Living buddha" is the same as "tulku".

Oh. My bad. Living Buddha is translated differently in Chinese and Vietnamese. Whenever I hear Living Buddha, I always think of that "Living Buddha" dude in Seattle...

[jrsan]

Living Buddha is a literal translation of the Chinese term "Hwo Fwo" or "Huo Fuo" (depending how you romanize it) - which means Rinpoche

[jrsan]

OK, forgive the length here - but I have watched this discussion about DeChan JueRen and Hanmi for a long time, hoping that someone else would speak up. Seeing no one else, I will make the attempt. I spent some time with this teacher, and have been with him in China, and can verify from first hand experience that he was well known in buddhist circles there, and that he was respected. I spoke about him with lamas at the Palace of Harmony temple in Beijing, I saw him with the abbot of Shaolin at Shaolin, and with Grand Master Fwo Jr in ChengDu. Because of the strange history of this lineage, it is my understanding that to be formally recognized in China, he had to prove that he had some of the ancient sutra and seals of this lineage. He had to answer to a group of other Rinpoche(s) questions on sutra and tantra, and to demonstrate that he had attained certain siddhi - all of which he did to the satisfaction of the other buddhist rinpoche there. Further, I have met Grand Master Fwo Jr and spent some time in monasteries of both DeChan JueRen and Master FwoJr. I have seen literally thousands .. maybe tens of thousands - at least the lines went on for quite a distance - of people lining the streets for a ceremony in which M Fwo Jr opened a new temple. When DeChan JueRen was ill with metastatic cancer, he never stopped teaching, never took a break for himself, never seemed to be concerned for himself, never complained. I should qualify this to say that the first time I saw this person, I too was skeptical, and in fact was going only to a free talk, to practice listening in Chinese after decades of not using it. My first impression was that he was a lunatic whom I would never study seriously with. But since I did start picking up a bit of Chinese, I went back. After a few days with him, I realized that there was much more to him than I had initially given him credit for. Years later, after my experiences with him - I could reach no other conclusion than that DeChan JueRen was a bona fide Rinpoche. A great Rinpoche in fact. Regarding some of the advertising in the U.S. - I have had similar reactions to it - however, there are some valid points i have heard in response to this concern - so i will attempt to list a few of them. first - he never did his own advertising...and frankly i doubt he even looked at it - second - he was never a teacher that looked for large numbers of students - he would give a wonderful teaching, and then - if too many people showed up the next day, he would just give a lecture about good conduct, or even about the flaws of americans (if in america) or other people if elsewhere - until the audience would thin out after a few days - and then he would give a great teaching again. I saw this many times, and even asked about why he did it. I was told that people either took the time to know him, or perhaps it wasn't their destiny. Third, in general he was not seeking the veteran of buddhism, with deep attachment to their pre-existing intellectual understanding - he wanted people who would come to the practice with an exploratory mind -and learn through actual practice - more so than intellectualization. Fourth - he did not live in luxury at all, ever, and several of his students have seen him give away large sums - he was not attached to money - but he did say that many americans have a mistaken view about dharma being "free" - dharma should not be "sold" but a student should come to the dharma with the idea that it is precious, and that the teacher is precious, and that it is appropriate to make offerings to one's teacher - or to any teacher that one learns from. I did see him give dharma for free, in fact many times - when he judged that a person had a certain level of merit or when someone was practicing diligently and etc. Fifth - i never heard him say so, but one student made the comment that a teacher may use the self interest of people to bring them to the dharma path - so that they could begin to transform as they attained the benefits of the dharma. I do know some people who offered him beautiful land, which he turned down - and yet he tended to base his centers in poor, polluted areas instead. when asked why - he said that that was where he was needed most. regarding the history of Kukai and Hui Guo - i would posit that if there is an erroneous statement made somewhere, that is probably an error on the part of a student, rather than anything he said personally. Regardless, the suppression of esoteric buddhism by one of the Tang emporers, and its subsequent appearance as Shingon in Japan is well documented. I should note that there were some Japanese Shingon priests among his disciples. Finally, I can say that many people benefitted greatly from this man's teachings and healings. On the balance after watching him for years, I concluded that he was an extremely attained and benevolent teacher, a great teacher in fact. When he passed away, I brought a picture of him on the altar at the Tibetan Dharma Center here - the Lama here looked at his picture, and said - "oh! such a great teacher! he is an emanation of the boddhisattva!" those were his words. He also told me that this man had given his students enough dharma for seven lifetimes. This same Tibetan lama has benefitted me and others in many ways, and has many qualities in his own right. Finally, with regard to Zen and Chan - Zen is Japanese for the Chinese word Chan. As for the teachings themselves, many of the mantras and visualizations were identical or similar to Tibetan meditations I have learned over the years. Except that this teacher made the meditations somehow alive - or that was my experience. With great gratitude and respect, I could not fail to speak up for this very benevolent and genuine teacher.

[White Lotus]

one should be careful when discussing the merits or demerits of others, such can produce undesirable effects. i have read this last post and feel comfortable with its tone and humility. i sense no kind of deception in this text.

careful... yes. but to avoid slander is advisable.

best wishes, Tom.

[Jikan]

When he passed away, I brought a picture of him on the altar at the Tibetan Dharma Center here - the Lama here looked at his picture, and said - "oh! such a great teacher! he is an emanation of the boddhisattva!" those were his words. He also told me that this man had given his students enough dharma for seven lifetimes. This same Tibetan lama has benefitted me and others in many ways, and has many qualities in his own right.

Just noticed this post, so I apologize for being late to ask a question or two about it. Would you mind telling us which Tibetan master made this assertion?

I should note that there were some Japanese Shingon priests among his disciples.

That's remarkable. Do you happen to know any of their names, or which temples they belonged to?

He had to answer to a group of other Rinpoche(s) questions on sutra and tantra, and to demonstrate that he had attained certain siddhi - all of which he did to the satisfaction of the other buddhist rinpoche there.

Which Rinpoches?