Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

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明安 Myoan
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

All very helpful, thank you. I will be attending an all-day zazenkai on Halloween, and will be able to ask a teacher directly about this as well. I feel fortunate to have so much input from caring and knowledgeable people here. :cheers:

Tendai does strike a chord in reading about it more online, but I don't think there are any temples nearby.

As for what I'm calling Zen, I'm using Kosho Uchiyama's book Opening the Hand of Thought as my primary source. In it, he describes One Zazen, Two Practices (vow & repentance) and Three Minds (joyful, parental, magnanimous).

Obviously in a purely literal sense it's possible to try to practice Zen without a teacher, or with extremely limited contact. That's what I do every day already.
Now, whether that means it's effective, correct, making full use of this precious human life to meaningfully work towards the liberation of beings, that's where I have concerns. So for me the issue isn't the value of teachers but what to do when contact is limited or impossible.
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Matt J
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by Matt J »

Jundo has Treeleaf and Dosho Port has some type of online program. I'm sure there are others.
Monlam Tharchin wrote: Obviously in a purely literal sense it's possible to try to practice Zen without a teacher, or with extremely limited contact. That's what I do every day already.
Now, whether that means it's effective, correct, making full use of this precious human life to meaningfully work towards the liberation of beings, that's where I have concerns. So for me the issue isn't the value of teachers but what to do when contact is limited or impossible.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

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Matt J wrote:Jundo has Treeleaf and Dosho Port has some type of online program. I'm sure there are others.
Monlam Tharchin wrote: Obviously in a purely literal sense it's possible to try to practice Zen without a teacher, or with extremely limited contact. That's what I do every day already.
Now, whether that means it's effective, correct, making full use of this precious human life to meaningfully work towards the liberation of beings, that's where I have concerns. So for me the issue isn't the value of teachers but what to do when contact is limited or impossible.
You may need to travel a bit for teachings. There are capable Zen teachers in the great state of Oregon. And in Seattle for sure.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by DGA »

Astus wrote:
DGA wrote:Are you speaking from experience, Astus?
Experience of what? Having a discussion with a teacher?

BTW, I was referring primarily to how Japanese Rinzai and Western Zen communities like including interviews in their programmes. Although probably it could be done online as well.
The comments by Matt J and Dan74 answer this question about as well as I could have.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Thank you, all. :cheers:
I'll pass along what I hear on Saturday also.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by seeker242 »

DGA wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
Monlam Tharchin wrote: Is it pointless to attempt to practice Zen without an active relationship with a teacher?
Pointless? No, because the point is still to see your true nature. Doesn't matter if you never see a teacher, that will always be the point of it! Just because it's helpful to see teachers doesn't mean it pointless without one. :smile:
The point is to realize your Buddha nature--not only to catch a glimpse, as you describe, but to stabilize it, cultivate it, &c. Is that possible without the transmission of tradition and teacher?

I keep directing people to this thread because it describes the matter so clearly:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p298602
Perhaps. Perhaps not! I think it would depend on the person. However, to say it's completely pointless without one, I think goes too far. Even if there is a little bit of "progression" then it still would not be pointless. Even a little bit of progression is better than none at all. Even if practicing with no teacher can only bring you 1/2 way, so to speak, that still wouldn't be pointless.

:smile:
boda wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Umm... ((inappropriate humour?)) :thinking:

Seriously, of course real-time face-to-face interaction is an entirely different experience than exchanging messages/letters/etc. And the potential of such interaction is completely different. Does it really need to be argued??
You must have heard of video conferencing, Dan.
Zen Master Wu Kwang does skype interviews with us in FL when he's in NY. Technically this is "online" but not really all that different from in person.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by DGA »

seeker242 wrote:
DGA wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
Pointless? No, because the point is still to see your true nature. Doesn't matter if you never see a teacher, that will always be the point of it! Just because it's helpful to see teachers doesn't mean it pointless without one. :smile:
The point is to realize your Buddha nature--not only to catch a glimpse, as you describe, but to stabilize it, cultivate it, &c. Is that possible without the transmission of tradition and teacher?

I keep directing people to this thread because it describes the matter so clearly:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p298602
Perhaps. Perhaps not! I think it would depend on the person. However, to say it's completely pointless without one, I think goes too far. Even if there is a little bit of "progression" then it still would not be pointless. Even a little bit of progression is better than none at all. Even if practicing with no teacher can only bring you 1/2 way, so to speak, that still wouldn't be pointless.

:smile:
You'll notice I was merely posing a question. "pointless" isn't my word on this issue. Anyway, as I was saying in a different thread...

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p307958

...if someone has the right attitude and the merit, that person won't be lacking for an authentic teacher for long.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

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Monlam Tharchin wrote:As for what I'm calling Zen, I'm using Kosho Uchiyama's book Opening the Hand of Thought as my primary source. In it, he describes One Zazen, Two Practices (vow & repentance) and Three Minds (joyful, parental, magnanimous).
In Chinese Pure Land you find the four types of buddha-remembrance (四種念佛), and among them the real-mark (i.e. ultimate) buddha-remembrance (實相念佛). See a brief explanation here.

The Zen explanation of that practice is from Daoxin, the fourth patriarch, in his "Fundamental Expedient Teachings for Calming the Mind Which Attains Enlightenment" (T85n2837p1286c19), who sums up the definition of yixin sanmei as "the mind which is aware of the Buddha is the Buddha, whereas [the mind which] does false thinking is the ordinary person" (tr. David W. Chappell), based on the Manjusri PP Sutra. After that he quotes the Sutra of Meditation on the Bodhisattva Universal Virtue (T09n0277p0393b10-11): "The ocean of impediment of all karmas / Is produced from one's false imagination. / Should one wish to repent of it / Let him sit upright and meditate on the true aspect [of reality]." (tr. Bunno Kato) And here meditation on the true aspect is "念實相", i.e. (using the translation above) remembering/thinking real-mark. Further on repentance, or rather formless repentance, there is the 6th chapter of the Platform Sutra. Then Daoxin (tr. Chappell) continues:

"The Dapinjing [couldn't find what it actually refers to, but an almost identical teaching is found in the first volume of the Fozangjing T15n0653p785a25] says: "No object of thought (wu-suo-nian) means to be thinking on Buddha (nianfo)."
Why is it called wu-suo-nian? It means the mind which is "thinking on Buddha" is called thinking on no object (wu-suo-nien). Apart from mind there is no Buddha at all. Apart from Buddha there is no mind at all. Thinking on Buddha is identical to the thinking mind. To seek the mind means to seek for the Buddha.
Why is this? Consciousness is without form. The Buddha lacks any outer appearance. When you understand this truth, it is identical to calming the mind (anxin). If you always are thinking on Buddha, grasping [onto externals] does not arise, [and everything] disappears and is without form, and thinking is impartial without [false] discrimination. To enter into this state, the mind which is thinking on Buddha disappears, and further it is not even necessary to indicate [the mind as Buddha]. When you see this, your mind is none other than the body of the real and true nature of the Tathagata."

Uchiyama's zazen is letting go of thoughts, what Dogen calls hishiryo, what the Platform Sutra calls no-thought (wunian). It is the same as real-mark nianfo. Not anything complicated. But whether one manages to abide by not abiding anywhere is another question.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

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"A student preparing for an entrance examination wants to pass; no one wants to fail. Yet the world in which there is no success or failure is the best. We cannot expect such a world in Japan today. It is possible only in the world of zazen. However, there is a group of people who try to put pass and fail into the world of zazen through satori. If you attain satori you succeed, if not you fail. This attitude has nothing to do with the buddha-dharma; it is samsara.
We only have to sit with the self that is only the self, without comparing it to others.
It is not necessary at all to visit a Zen master to ask if one is enlightened or not. That is really a stupid question. First of all, to practice the buddha-dharma is to live out the self that is only the self. The truth is that one always has to live out the self that is only the self in any situation, so it is impossible to bring up the question of whether one succeeds or fails."

(Kosho Uchiyama: The Wholehearted Way, p 118)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Thanks, Astus. Both posts very helpful.
I came across Real Mark nembutsu in Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith but it wasn't explained in much detail.
I am suspecting that the exclusive nembutsu of Jodo-shu or Shin isn't quite right for this point in my life, so it's good to get pointed in the right direction when the various PL schools aren't nearly as well disseminated in the West as others.

I ordered Uchiyama's two other well-known books because of your second post, Wholehearted Way where that quote is from, and Cook Your Life.
His Opening the Hand of Thought has helped me more than any other book to date to delve into Zen practice.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

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Monlam Tharchin wrote:to delve into Zen practice.
While I agree that Uchiyama's books are quite lucid and easy to follow, it should be kept in mind that he represents his own interpretation of one approach of Soto Zen. If you want for instance to familiarise yourself with Chan, i.e. Chinese Buddhism, there are other sources you may want to look into. For a start there is The Fundamentals of Meditation Practice (or in PDF) by Ting Chen. That teaching shows very well how in Chinese Buddhism the methods of Tiantai, Chan and Pure Land are equally used and they form an organic whole. A similar teaching nicely summed up by the Vietnamese teacher Thich Thanh Tu can be found on the pages 41-58 in Keys to Buddhism.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

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As a practice without teacher, Ting Chen recommends the Samadhi that is Neither Walking nor Seated:

"The practices of The Maha-Chih-Kuan method are thorough, assuredly, but are too subtle to be done without the aid of an accomplished teacher. However, until such time as the reader may discover such a teacher, he might practice the following effective method of observing the mind. Sit comfortably in the lotus position or in any other position that is suitable for you. Lay down all things, and even give up the thought of laying everything down. In this way, thinking of neither good nor evil, close your eyes gently and lightly observe where your thoughts seem to issue from. This permits you passively to be aware of your false thoughts as they suddenly come and just as suddenly go, neither grasping at them nor driving them away; thus, in time, you can come to understand profoundly that false thought has no self-nature (is empty) and that it is originally void. When false thought is then illuminated by your mind, a stillness becomes evident, which then becomes suchness. Then if another thought suddenly arises, using the same approach, just observe lightly to see where the thought seems to come from. Do this at least once a day for at least half an hour."

Gishin in The Collected Teachings of the Tendai Lotus School writes that it is the practice recommended for also for lay followers, while the other three samadhis are primarily for monastics. And as you may recognise, that is practically the same as zazen.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by Wayfarer »

:good:

that is a very good passage indeed, thank you.

:namaste:
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

:bow: excellent!
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by boda »

To be pointless is the point, so yes.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

boda wrote:To be pointless is the point, so yes.
The "pointless" I worry about is in the sense of a waste of time that does not save other beings nor oneself.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by boda »

"If you want to travel the Way of Buddhas and Zen masters, then expect nothing, seek nothing, and grasp nothing."

~ Dōgen Zenji
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

We take the Bodhisattva Vows.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by boda »

Nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

Post by DGA »

boda wrote:"If you want to travel the Way of Buddhas and Zen masters, then expect nothing, seek nothing, and grasp nothing."

~ Dōgen Zenji
Sure. It takes discipline to learn how to do this, and practice. How does one learn and master this discipline? In what context?
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