Sakra Indra Devanam

Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby Zhen Li » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:16 am

I am sorry for being so ignorant and not meeting your expectations Rory.
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby rory » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:51 am

Over at the ordination thread and here you argue but you don't support your assertions. So don't be sorry just learn. I've learnt lots of things from Ven. Indrajala which is great. Learning is a lifelong experience. I need to learn Classical Chinese and Japanese.
gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby Zhen Li » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:09 am

I am sorry, again. But if you would like me to explain something, I will be more than happy to.

Similarly, I would like you to support the assertion that believing two names that do not refer to anything physical to equate to one identity can refer to anything objective in the world, such that believing one equation is actually false and the other true. Literary figures are infinitely malleable in this way. Maybe I am missing something, but these claims are striking me as very funny and overly confident. This reminds me of reading Mimamsa Shastras. :P
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby PorkChop » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:35 pm

I think rory does have a good point. The imagery of Osiris is one who dies and comes back, which doesn't really fit the imagery of Zeus. The imagery of one who dies and comes back is closely linked to agriculture, also usually symbolized by the moon & the bull. I would only like to add the Dionysus mystery religion to her list of correlates, possibly even the Germanic god Baldr. I think the Egyptian god related to Zeus would probably be Amun-Ra (a fusion of gods Amun and Ra), who became Zeus Ammon in Greece.
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby Zhen Li » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:48 pm

Sorry for bringing up the issue again, but I think it's important to point out that there is a bit of difficulty in talking about these figures as having only one identity. I am sure as a Mahayana Buddhist you also see that absurdity. I am sure you also understand that this point can't be made (i.e. that Jupiter is definitely not equal in any way to Osiris). There are all sorts of fluidities in these identities, and this comes with the territory, where one is also talking about christianising temples of Jupiter, and of winning over converts from the cults of Jupiter, but also with people making serious mistakes. As you say, Zeus is Ammon, who is also Osiris.
Charles Crosthwaite, Synchronology, a treatise on the history, chronology and mythology of the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Phoenicians, p. 204 wrote:Osiris, or Aphas-Theus (Pater-deus) was unquestionably the chief deity of the Egyptians, and his worship was eventually united with that of Apis. There is every reason also to think that this very temple [of Apis] is the one called in Scripture No-Ammon, which certainly means the temple of Jupiter or Osiris, for Herodotus tells us plainly that Osiris and Jupiter were the same person.

One can't really insist upon mythological figures being distinctly one thing and not another, since clearly they merge in various ways and have fluid identities.
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby PorkChop » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:04 pm

Zhen Li wrote:Sorry for bringing up the issue again, but I think it's important to point out that there is a bit of difficulty in talking about these figures as having only one identity. I am sure as a Mahayana Buddhist you also see that absurdity. I am sure you also understand that this point can't be made (i.e. that Jupiter is definitely not equal in any way to Osiris). There are all sorts of fluidities in these identities, and this comes with the territory, where one is also talking about christianising temples of Jupiter, and of winning over converts from the cults of Jupiter, but also with people making serious mistakes. As you say, Zeus is Ammon, who is also Osiris.
Charles Crosthwaite, Synchronology, a treatise on the history, chronology and mythology of the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Phoenicians, p. 204 wrote:Osiris, or Aphas-Theus (Pater-deus) was unquestionably the chief deity of the Egyptians, and his worship was eventually united with that of Apis. There is every reason also to think that this very temple [of Apis] is the one called in Scripture No-Ammon, which certainly means the temple of Jupiter or Osiris, for Herodotus tells us plainly that Osiris and Jupiter were the same person.

One can't really insist upon mythological figures being distinctly one thing and not another, since clearly they merge in various ways and have fluid identities.
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Well, for starters that Crosthwaite book is from 1839, and I am not sure any comparative religion expert would continue to take that as an authoritative source. For an overview of where 19th century thought stands versus modern studies in myth, you may want to read this. Second, Crosthwaite actually proposes his theory of Osiris = Zeus in Synchronology in the context of him asserting that Herodotus was wrong in the later's equating of Osiris with Hephaestus. How that became Crosthwaite quoting Herodotus, I'll never know. I agree with you that the identities of these deities are somewhat fluid. It was common practice in Greece & Rome to equate foreign gods in foreign pantheons with their own gods in their own pantheon; and while Crosthwaite's initial premise is correct that sometimes they were a little off in their equations, aside from Crosthwaite, I see no one making the assertion that Amon and Osiris are interchangeable. While the personalities of these deities may be somewhat fluid, there are definite guidelines when it comes to imagery & metaphor. The moon as a symbol of rebirth is a constant theme throughout various different cultures. Here's a good start to reading up on this. The sun and the lion are symbols of light, wisdom, power, and conquering death. A sun god (Ammon Ra) would never be confused with a moon god (Osiris). Zeus was originally a sky god portrayed with an eagle and falls under the category of a "thunder god", as do Thor and Indra. The name 'Zeus' came from the Indo-European dius meaning 'day' and 'light', the moment of lighting up. The Egyptian equivalent of thunder imagery would probably be Set and I doubt that any Egyptian would ever confuse Set for Osiris as the former killed the later. Actually, Set would've been an apt parallel for Thor, Indra, and Zeus - as he was considered the chief deity prior to Egypt getting conquered by several foreign nations, which lead to his demonization. This example of Set does verify the fluidity of the identity of the deities, but does not negate the idea that the underlying imagery remains constant.
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby Zhen Li » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:33 pm

Well, with all sincerity I think you may be missing my point. I won't pursue it any further.
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby PorkChop » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:54 pm

Zhen Li wrote:Well, with all sincerity I think you may be missing my point. I won't pursue it any further.
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Yeah, I must be missing something, because in my mind the metaphors are what is important (not the idea that these figures represent some objectively real personality) and they can not be mixed up or arbitrarily reassigned so easily.
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby Zhen Li » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:01 pm

People do all sorts of stuff.
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby rory » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:42 am

I've give a very small reading list of the modern work I've done in Roman religion,below, with a special interest in Middle Eastern religion. There is tremendous research lingusitic as well as epigraphical as well as comparative in the area. Christian Mary is a combination of Isis (imagery with the child Horus) and Attis, the lover of the Mother goddess Cybele, Attis who dies and reincarnates each year during April (does this sound familiar) = Jesus. Many Christians called the Attis cult later than Jesus, but recent finds in Spain and Germany have shown it is as early as 100 AD scary to Jesus worshippers. Attis is part of the near eastern story of the King who is the lover of the goddess, their sexual congress keeps the kingdom fertile and when he dies a new king is chosen. Indeed much biblical imagery of a 'shepherd' refers to this. Read Mark Munn's excellent book.
gassho
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this isn't an personal opinion, it's a matter of scholarly research. If you wish to equate Mary to Isis that's historical then Jesus is the child-god Horus..
Reading List:

Indo-European sacred space : Vedic and Roman cult / Roger D. Woodard. Woodard, Roger D.
The cult of Isis among women in the Graeco-Roman world / Sharon Kelly Heyob.
The Mother of the Gods, Athens, and the tyranny of Asia : a study of sovereignty in ancient religion / Mark Munn. Munn, Mark Henderson.
La Mère des dieux : de Cybèle à la Vierge Marie / Philippe Borgeaud. Borgeaud, Philippe.
Attis, between myth and history : king, priest, and God / by Maria Grazia Lancellotti. Lancellotti, Maria Grazia. 09-25-2009 Copy 1
Soteriology and mystic aspects in the cult of Cybele and Attis / Giulia Sfameni Gasparro. Sfameni Gasparro, Giulia.
Attis, between myth and history : king, priest, and God / by Maria Grazia Lancellotti. Lancellotti, Maria Grazia. 09-25-2009 Copy 1
Soteriology and mystic aspects in the cult of Cybele and Attis / Giulia Sfameni Gasparro. Sfameni Gasparro, Giulia.
Ritual dynamics and religious change in the Roman Empire : proceedings of the eighth Workshop of the International Network Impact of Empire (Heidelberg, July 5-7, 2007) / edited by Olivier Hekster, Sebastian Schmidt-Hofner, Christian Witschel. Impact of Empire (Organization). Workshop (8th : 2007 : Heidelberg, Germany)
Pagans and Christians in late antiquity : a sourcebook / A.D. Lee. Lee, A. D. 01-28-2010 Copy 1
Religious conflict in fourth-century Rome : a documentary study / Brian Croke & Jill Harries. Croke, Brian.
La romanisation des dieux : l'interpretatio romana en Afrique du Nord sous le Haut-Empire / par Alain Cadotte. Cadotte, Alain. 03-01-2010 Copy 1
Did God have a wife? : archaeology and folk religion in ancient Israel / William G. Dever. Dever, William G. 03-01-2010 Copy 1
Manuel d'ougaritique. English Bordreuil, Pierre. 03-05-2010 Copy 1
Religio Phoenicia : acta colloquii Namurcensis habiti diebus 14 et 15 mensis Decembris anni 1984 / ediderunt C. Bonnet, E. Lipiński, P. Marchetti ; avec l'aide du Centre d'étude et de recherche universitaire de Namur ; sous les auspices de la Communauté française de Belgique : onder de auspiciën van het Ministerie van Onderwijs.
The pagan god : popular religion in the Greco-Roman Near East / by Javier Teixidor. Teixidor, Javier.
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Sakra Indra Devanam

Postby Zhen Li » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:51 am

I wasn't making an academic point.
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