Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:46 am

LastLegend wrote:Wearing robes does not make you monk.


Perhaps I shall take them off and walk around like a Jain monk.

If ya' know whad' I mean...

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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:49 am

You would be a naked scholar if you take them off.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby PorkChop » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:51 am

Indrajala wrote:Perhaps I shall take them off and walk around like a Jain monk.

If ya' know whad' I mean...


This made me LOL
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby rory » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:52 am

Last Legend;
please remember the karma you make insulting a monastic! Ven. Indrajala is not hurt by your words, it is you who will pay. You are a Buddhist- practice right speech. if you cannot control yourself, then leave the keyboard.
gassho
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Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:54 am

rory wrote:Last Legend;
please remember the karma you make insulting a monastic! Ven. Indrajala is not hurt by your words, it is you who will pay. You are a Buddhist- practice right speech. if you cannot control yourself, then leave the keyboard.
gassho
rory


Thanks for your reminders.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:54 am

LastLegend wrote:You would be a naked scholar if you take them off.


It ain't so bad.

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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:58 am

That is for you to know.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Lotus415 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:40 am

Indrajala presently staying at a Tibetan monastery? Are you giving lectures there against Amitabha and the existence of Dewachen as well?

Are you teaching them how all of their ceremonies are not pure traditional Buddhism as well?
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:11 am

Lotus415 wrote:Indrajala presently staying at a Tibetan monastery? Are you giving lectures there against Amitabha and the existence of Dewachen as well?

Are you teaching them how all of their ceremonies are not pure traditional Buddhism as well?


These questions are misrepresenting what I've been saying all along.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby PorkChop » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:24 am

Indrajala wrote:
Lotus415 wrote:Indrajala presently staying at a Tibetan monastery? Are you giving lectures there against Amitabha and the existence of Dewachen as well?

Are you teaching them how all of their ceremonies are not pure traditional Buddhism as well?


These questions are misrepresenting what I've been saying all along.


Yeah, everything I've read from you doesn't lead me to think you doubt the existence of Amitabha. I think you have a valid point when you criticize people devolving the Pure Land path into vegetarianism + bhakti. I just always thought of the Chinese schools as the ones more serious about precepts, more curious about other sutras, and more interested in the Dharma seals. This isn't a criticism of the Japanese schools - it's important to remember the environment they developed in and to note that their teachings aren't so absolute, but forgiving(?) of those in bad situations to give them something to work on so they can at least make some headway along the path.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby sukhamanveti » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:00 am

LastLegend wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
LastLegend wrote:You have so much time on your hand, for a monk. My advice to you is abandon your scholarly knowledge and focus on your own liberation.


Gaining knowledge about the world is all part of the bodhisattva ideal.


[T]hat's what you think...


It is a teaching of the Daśabhūmika Sūtra and of the Vimalakīrti Nirdeśa Sūtra that mastering worldly knowledge is a part of the bodhisattva's skill-in-means. From Cleary's translation of the former: "In order to mature people, they [bodhisattvas] establish arts and skills--writing, printing, mathematics, medical sciences...Establishing excellent education....Witty in the finest song and dance....Mastering observation of the movements of celestial bodies and earth..." From Thurman's translation of the latter: "He [the bodhisattva Vimalakīrti] understood the mundane and transcendental sciences..."
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:44 am

Indrajala wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:This is what I want to know myself but he hasn't answered back yet. The fact that he disagrees with pure land teachings is perfectly fine with me, but the fact that he does this as a Mahayana monk is beyond me.


Pure Land Buddhism as I often have seen or observed is Devayāna.


:rolling:

You should get a gold medal in trolling us pure landers. Oh well. Thanks for the laugh though. :mrgreen:
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby PorkChop » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:46 am

Nighthawk wrote:You should get a gold medal in trolling us pure landers. Oh well. Thanks for the laugh though. :mrgreen:


Dude, I think we make perfect troll-bait... :rolling:
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby TheSpirit » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:00 am

rory wrote:Last Legend;
please remember the karma you make insulting a monastic! Ven. Indrajala is not hurt by your words, it is you who will pay. You are a Buddhist- practice right speech. if you cannot control yourself, then leave the keyboard.
gassho
rory


It is a bad karma for criticizing monks? Dear god. I think putting on a robe then proceed to insult all other paths except his own is nothing but ego. He is full of it. Whether he wears a robe or not he is just a human and really nothing more than a prideful person. Maybe monk should strive to bring peace and harmony not provoke anger as it is clearly from his response. I imagine if he has one drop of compassion he would not cause others to be angry so that they may create bad karma. I find that type of monk no more worthy of respect than others...if anything, worth less respect. I am not impress by his ego. I know wiser and more compassionate lay practitioner. Sometimes monks need criticism to maybe help wake them up. Boosting their status as a monk does them no good but fuel the ego. Indrajala probably don't need any more pride as he is overflow with it. My opinion, take it or leave it.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby rory » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:50 am

Spirit; a monk preaches the Dharma, his job isn't to make people feel happy and secure or peaceful. Good Buddhist monks teach lay people to purify their minds, cut attachments and to escape samsara. Ven. Indrajala is a good Dharma friend.
gassho
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Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby PorkChop » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:15 am

rory wrote:Spirit; a monk preaches the Dharma, his job isn't to make people feel happy and secure or peaceful. Good Buddhist monks teach lay people to purify their minds, cut attachments and to escape samsara. Ven. Indrajala is a good Dharma friend.


Not to offend, but the Dharma doesn't bring peace? I thought that equanimity, one of the 7 limbs of enlightenment, was one of the greatest forms of peace a sentient being could know - not being attached to outcomes. Secure? Isn't refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, the greatest security there is?
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby TheSpirit » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:44 pm

rory wrote:Spirit; a monk preaches the Dharma, his job isn't to make people feel happy and secure or peaceful. Good Buddhist monks teach lay people to purify their minds, cut attachments and to escape samsara. Ven. Indrajala is a good Dharma friend.
gassho
Rory


I am sure there are rules of harmony they must follow. Indrajala lack the skillful means to deliver the dharma. He doesn't preaches dharma, all he preaches is from a Scholar point of view, and if a practice is somehow in conflict with this scholar pov, it is somehow invalid. That is itself a dangerous attachment he has which is very evident in almost all his post as he boasts about his "scholar" knowledge as if that somehow will qualify him superior than previous monks who had taught, practiced, and advocated the Pure Land Path. If scholars has such authority why don't we let them have all the saying how Buddhist should practice, what they need to believe. Let the scholar decides what is real Buddhism and what is not why don't we? Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom comes from dwelling deeply in practice and experience it. That's my opinion. So please spare me the whole him being a monk teaching people this and that, the blind isn't any better leading the blind.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby longjie » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:09 pm

:crazy: Why is everyone so worried about one person they disagree with? And why don't we talk about Pure Land teachings, rather than people? There has been altogether too much karma-shaming, accusation of slander, etc.

Perhaps Indrajala is right, that people who wish for rebirth in the Pure Land, while neglecting the bodhisattva path in this life, are practicing the Devayana? This is definitely worth talking about, and we should remember that people practicing Pure Land Buddhism these days are not necessarily following the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism as taught in India.

Often Pure Land teachings are based on idiosyncratic interpretations of the 3 sutras that neglect their context within the larger world of Mahayana Buddhism.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Dodatsu » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:48 pm

longjie wrote:Perhaps Indrajala is right, that people who wish for rebirth in the Pure Land, while neglecting the bodhisattva path in this life, are practicing the Devayana? This is definitely worth talking about, and we should remember that people practicing Pure Land Buddhism these days are not necessarily following the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism as taught in India.

Often Pure Land teachings are based on idiosyncratic interpretations of the 3 sutras that neglect their context within the larger world of Mahayana Buddhism.


From the interpretation in some Pure Land schools, aspiration for birth in the Pure Land is also a bodhisattva path, we're not really capable to completely do it here, that's why trying to attain enlightenment in samsara is termed the "Path of Sages", it is very difficult for most of us, that's why the Pure Land path offers us the chance to attain buddhahood in the Pure Land, thus it is termed by Nagarjuna as the "Easy Practice". Yet because of its simplicity, it is also difficult to comprehend, thus in the Shorter Sukhavativyuha Sutra (Amitabha Sutra) it is called "the teaching most difficult to believe".

After going through transmission from India to China, Korea and Japan, it is unavoidable that interpretations would differ. But the root is still there - the wish to attain liberation from samsara, only that the method, teachings and interpretations differ.

Concerning compassion, there is a difference between the Path of Sages and the Pure Land Path.
Compassion in the Path of Sages is to pity, commiserate with, and care for beings. It is extremely difficult, however, to accomplish the saving of others just as one wishes.
Compassion in the Pure Land Path should be understood as first attaining Buddhahood quickly through saying the nembutsu and, with the mind of great love and compassion, freely benefiting sentient beings as one wishes.
However much love and pity we may feel in our present lives, it is hard to save others as we wish; hence, such compassion remains unfulfilled. Only the saying of the nembutsu, then, is the mind of great compassion that is thoroughgoing.


Thus were his words.
(Tannisho 4)
Contemplating the power of Tathagata's Primal Vow,
One sees that no foolish being who encounters it passes by in vain.
When a person single-heartedly practices the saying of the Name alone,
It brings quickly to fullness and perfection [in that person] the great treasure ocean of true and real virtues.
- Shinran Shonin
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Zhen Li » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:54 pm

longjie wrote:Perhaps Indrajala is right, that people who wish for rebirth in the Pure Land, while neglecting the bodhisattva path in this life, are practicing the Devayana? This is definitely worth talking about, and we should remember that people practicing Pure Land Buddhism these days are not necessarily following the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism as taught in India.

Often Pure Land teachings are based on idiosyncratic interpretations of the 3 sutras that neglect their context within the larger world of Mahayana Buddhism.

How provocative of you.

But the sutras don't need to be placed in the context of the larger world of Mahayana Buddhism to allow one to use them to practice the Bodhisattvayana. Anyone who is practising them is on the Bodhisattvayana.

Practising Mahayana isn't an all or nothing deal, there is a spectrum of approaches - from just reciting the Buddha's name, to trying to uphold all the Bodhisattva precepts and fulfil the perfections, and if you actually talk to Buddhists in a continuing modern Indian tradition in the Kathmandu valley about pureland practice, there will be some who even claim that after certain pureland practices you're set for life with a guaranteed rebirth in Sukhavati and consequently Buddhahood, and don't need to worry about karma or your next life any more.
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