Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:46 am

PorkChop wrote:Even with quotes in the Pali canon saying explicitly that the householder doesn't necessarily give up sensuality in order to make progress along the path.


What you perhaps fail to understand is that traditionally abandonment of kāma is a prerequisite for attainment of the jhānas.

So, while you may progress to some extent without giving up sensuality, certain yogic attainments demand a degree of renunciation from sensual pleasures, i.e., kāma.


I only know what you've said on the posts I've read here and on your blog.


If you want to know something about me, just ask. No need to speculate about me on a public forum when you have the option of asking me directly.


Are you not the one that complained about the lack of freedom in Chinese Buddhism?


The Buddha suggested you don't sleep under the same tree twice.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:50 am

LastLegend wrote:You have so much time on your hand, for a monk. My advice to you is abandon your scholarly knowledge and focus on your own liberation.


Gaining knowledge about the world is all part of the bodhisattva ideal.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby PorkChop » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:51 am

Indrajala wrote:Pure Land Buddhism as I often have seen or observed is Devayāna.


Hrmmm... maybe...

The Buddha to Mahanama wrote:"Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Of one who does this, Mahanama, it is said: 'Among those who are out of tune, the disciple of the noble ones dwells in tune; among those who are malicious, he dwells without malice; having attained the stream of Dhamma, he develops the recollection of the devas.'"
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:01 am

While I have the utmost respect for the gods, I still think liberation as a human in the present life is optimal.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:02 am

PorkChop wrote:
Indrajala wrote:Pure Land Buddhism as I often have seen or observed is Devayāna.


Hrmmm... maybe...


Just as a point of information, those recollections have pre-requisites:

AN 11.13 wrote:"One who is aroused to practice is one of conviction, not without conviction. One aroused to practice is one with persistence aroused, not lazy. One aroused to practice is one of established mindfulness, not muddled mindfulness. One aroused to practice is centered in concentration, not uncentered. One aroused to practice is discerning, not undiscerning.

"Established in these five qualities, you should further develop six qualities:...


It's basically the five faculties/powers which support the recollections as methods to develop the awakening factors.

Does Pure Land describe similar pre-reqs for a similar process of development?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby PorkChop » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:05 am

Indrajala wrote:What you perhaps fail to understand is that traditionally abandonment of kāma is a prerequisite for attainment of the jhānas.

So, while you may progress to some extent without giving up sensuality, certain yogic attainments demand a degree of renunciation from sensual pleasures, i.e., kāma.


I don't fail to understand any of that.
Sutta Nipata 2.14 wrote:If unable to lead a celibate life, he (a lay follower) should not go to another's wife.

Jhāna's are not a requirement for Stream Entry, which is the first goal of the Householder path and considered sweeter than the highest heaven.
Sakadāgāmi would require abandoning Kāma-rāga as well.

Indrajala wrote:If you want to know something about me, just ask. No need to speculate about me on a public forum when you have the option of asking me directly.


The question was posed many posts ago:
Why not ordain in Theravada instead, if you have such a disdain for a path that is referenced in 290 Mahayana sutras?
It wasn't answered, further questions were asked, they weren't answered, so thus the speculation.

Indrajala wrote:The Buddha suggested you don't sleep under the same tree twice.

Just gotta say, that's an awesome quote.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby PorkChop » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:13 am

daverupa wrote:Just as a point of information, those recollections have pre-requisites:

AN 11.13 wrote:"One who is aroused to practice is one of conviction, not without conviction. One aroused to practice is one with persistence aroused, not lazy. One aroused to practice is one of established mindfulness, not muddled mindfulness. One aroused to practice is centered in concentration, not uncentered. One aroused to practice is discerning, not undiscerning.

"Established in these five qualities, you should further develop six qualities:...


It's basically the five faculties/powers which support the recollections as methods to develop the awakening factors.

Does Pure Land describe similar pre-reqs for a similar process of development?


Most Pure Land schools, yes.

Conviction = Saddah no? So here, that could be faith as well as persistence. This first step of the "Faith, Vows, Practice" formula from the PL sutras.

Not being lazy = All the Chinese-influenced schools are big on not being lazy, as is Honen. ShanTao says pretty much "don't you dare go a moment without practicing".

Mindfulness & Concentration = Chinese-influenced schools say not to recite with a distracted mind. Honen says both are okay, because it should be recited whenever one can, but mentions that a non-distracted mind is certainly better.

I don't mention Shinran here, because explaining his interpretation could take a while due to the fact that it's subtle and seems to say some outrageous things, though once you understand his train of thought, it makes more sense.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:15 am

Indrajala wrote:
LastLegend wrote:You have so much time on your hand, for a monk. My advice to you is abandon your scholarly knowledge and focus on your own liberation.


Gaining knowledge about the world is all part of the bodhisattva ideal.


What's what you think. I doubt your integrity. I think you make a farce out of your robes by being here and telling "this is right path, and that is not." Prove it. Otherwise, your scholarly knowledge will not liberate you.


Rory,

Comfort zone? I know my own zone and don't feel the need to defend it.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:20 am

PorkChop wrote:Jhāna's are not a requirement for Stream Entry, which is the first goal of the Householder path and considered sweeter than the highest heaven.
Sakadāgāmi would require abandoning Kāma-rāga as well.


While I believe these are general guidelines, it is probably best to address passions be they sexual or emotional in nature.


Why not ordain in Theravada instead, if you have such a disdain for a path that is referenced in 290 Mahayana sutras?
It wasn't answered, further questions were asked, they weren't answered, so thus the speculation.


Such questions are really unnecessary.

I just call myself Buddhist. That's enough. I don't really feel compelled to strictly sign into a specific tradition at the moment. I earlier spent two and a half months in a Theravadin temple in Singapore before coming to Nepal where I am presently in a Tibetan monastery. Next year I'll probably be staying in a Japanese temple, though I might go stay in Korea for a bit. Who knows.

As an ecumenical monk I am free to roam around.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:22 am

LastLegend wrote:What's what you think. I doubt your integrity.


Oh well.

I think you make a farce out of your robes by being here and telling "this is right path, and that is not."


Monks in fact have a right to an opinion.

Prove it. Otherwise, your scholarly knowledge will not liberate you.


Do you want me to magically walk through your wall and demonstrate advanced supernormal abilities?
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:25 am

Indrajala wrote:
LastLegend wrote:What's what you think. I doubt your integrity.


Oh well.

I think you make a farce out of your robes by being here and telling "this is right path, and that is not."


Monks in fact have a right to an opinion.

Prove it. Otherwise, your scholarly knowledge will not liberate you.


Do you want me to magically walk through your wall and demonstrate advanced supernormal abilities?



One thing I don't doubt is your ability to reason. But whether that helps you or anyone here is another story.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:29 am

LastLegend wrote:One thing I don't doubt is your ability to reason. But whether that helps you or anyone here is another story.


Critical thinking is not a hindrance, contrary to what some Buddhists think.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:31 am

Indrajala wrote:
LastLegend wrote:One thing I don't doubt is your ability to reason. But whether that helps you or anyone here is another story.


Critical thinking is not a hindrance, contrary to what some Buddhists think.


Critical thinking about what? How about critically focus on your liberation since you are a monk?
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:31 am

Indrajala wrote:Sure, but some teachings take it to an extreme...


PorkChop wrote:
daverupa wrote:Does Pure Land describe similar pre-reqs for a similar process of development?


Most Pure Land schools, yes.


I have to say, it looks like the beginnings of an agreement, even if the emphases from each direction are a little like opposite charges as they approach one another...
Last edited by daverupa on Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:32 am

LastLegend wrote:Critical thinking about what? How about critically focus on your liberation since you are a monk?


Why do you assume I do not?
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:33 am

Yes, I do assume that you do not.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:34 am

LastLegend wrote:Yes, I do assume that you do not.


Your assumptions are incorrect.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:39 am

Indrajala wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Yes, I do assume that you do not.


Your assumptions are incorrect.


Here is another assumption for you: perhaps you are not ready to be a monk. Perhaps some critical self-reflection?
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby Indrajala » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:41 am

LastLegend wrote:Here is another assumption for you: perhaps you are not ready to be a monk. Perhaps some critical self-reflection?


Nevertheless, I am a monk.

So here we are.
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Re: Provenance of Pure Land Practice

Postby LastLegend » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:44 am

Indrajala wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Here is another assumption for you: perhaps you are not ready to be a monk. Perhaps some critical self-reflection?


Nevertheless, I am a monk.

So here we are.


Wearing robes does not make you monk.
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