Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

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noclue
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby noclue » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:23 am

Thanks for that David, I am not into online dharma combats and otherwise you know the answer.

I was addressing the view that there is nothing to practice and no enlightenment to attain.

There is plenty of suffering within or without, and such view often does little more than hide the head in sand (or further) rather than facing it squarely IMO.

My mind wanders, fears, longs, lusts, flies into rage, procrastinates in idle fantasies etc etc. Yours doesn't?

So who makes you suffer?

Dae Bi
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Dae Bi » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:43 pm

noclue, I wasn't trying to do Dharma combat, I was just trying to make you think!. In fact, you have answered your own question! Because it is your own mind that is causing the suffering. Yes my mind wanders and sometimes I get upset and even feel blue. However, understanding that it is this very mind which is the cause, allows me to put all things in perspective.
Last edited by Dae Bi on Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.

White Lotus
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:16 pm

:namaste: all things are Mind, what is there to accept and what is there to reject, other than what you accept and what you reject.

some have said that this suffering samsara is nirvana. that is a point a view for some, for others an experiential reality.

we suffer, even the buddha suffered from time to time (though there was no such person called the Buddha, no self to be named Buddha). it is Mind that causes us to suffer and Mind that brings about the cessation of suffering.

i speculate that it is the journey in buddhism that brings about changes in the individual, however that journey leads back to the start, it is an immense journey in which finally one has not taken a single step.

the changes that occur in us during the journey are a source of relief from suffering, it can be said it is the journey that matters more than the destination. the destination is no destination. it is the origin. just this mind.

best wishes, White Lotus.

the moon is always there,
every night whithout fail.
why look for its reflection
when your own nature
always shines.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Dexing
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Dexing » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:53 pm

nopalabhyate...

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kirtu
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby kirtu » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:48 pm



"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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catmoon
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby catmoon » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:03 pm

Perhaps Ven. Huifeng could tell us what the Chan take is on the subject of Buddha nature. A few words to satisfy the idle curiosity, perhaps? Is it a formal part of Chan doctrine?
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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kirtu
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby kirtu » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:17 pm



"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Astus
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Astus » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:24 pm

catmoon,

I can tell you before Master Huifeng appears that throughout the history of Chan there were different interpretations of what buddha-nature stands for. These views and debates were very much interwoven with the general situation in Chinese Buddhism and should not be taken as a strictly and exclusively Chan thing. In Chinese Buddhism from early on the teaching of buddha-nature was taken granted and except for Xuanzang's short-lived attempt to reform that it was accepted in every school. However, that doesn't mean they understood the buddha-nature in the same way, see for instance the debate on whether insentient things are included within buddha-nature or not. Thus I think we can talk about interpretations from "nominal buddha-nature" (as a different expression of emptiness) up to "original enlightenment" (everyone is de facto enlightened). For example, Dogen's problem (Why practice if I'm a buddha?) comes from the original enlightenment view he inherited from the Japanese Tendai school.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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catmoon
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby catmoon » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:50 pm

So basically you're saying there is a pretty wide variety of views that are held, or have been held at one time, within Chan.

Rats. I was kinda hoping there was a view common the the whole of Chan.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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Dexing
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Dexing » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:18 pm

nopalabhyate...

White Lotus
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:46 pm

:namaste: the higher vehicles say that deportment and personal behaviour are not important. i find the view of the lower vehicles can be refreshing when approaching personal holiness. though have not attained sufficient holiness to consider myself a buddha.

inspite of clearly seeing my own nature and the nature of all things i still have not attained buddha deportment. and one knows a tree by its fruit... which i do not yet have. i suspect several on this site see their own nature and the nature of all things. Keizan in the Denkoroku considered this a mark of buddhahood, but that in the ch'an transmission it was also necessary to attain to no-way, non-attainment and no-liberation. keizan sees these things as fundamental. to me they mean nothing. it is only mind that matters.

it is interesting that in later life Master Dogen is reported to have had a bad temper.

the fundamental is mind. the icing on the cake is deportment. you can have one without the other, hopefully one day i can have both together!

with love, from white Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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kirtu
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby kirtu » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:29 am



"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Huifeng
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Huifeng » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:47 pm



White Lotus
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:26 pm

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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kirtu
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby kirtu » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:08 pm



"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

White Lotus
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:00 pm

:namaste: noble Kirt, i myself think that deportment is important, but it is a noticable fact that Vinaya masters discredited early chinese zen. was this because deportment was not seen as fundamental and there was even talk of burning the sutras from which that teaching of deportment was derived.

i dont know. i am not a scholar. i am told that deportment is not necessary in preparation for enlightenment. i understand that all enlightened beings immediately have perfect deportment. it is said by some however that all things are the buddha nature, the dharmakaya and that every action and every word is in perfect accordance with true nature, whether or not a being knows its enlightened. zen life zen death.

everything is Mind/buddha nature/tathata. poor deportment is no less mind than pure deportment. purity and impurity are both mind. a higher vehicle may say that it is not helpful to make such distinctions as pure and impure. this is since all is perfectly Mind.

i like to distinguish between pure and impure and could be accused of falling into dualism... but if this is the case i would accuse my accuser of attaching to oneness.

i may be mistaken in my assertion that higher vehicles place less emphasis on deportment. as i say i am not a scholar... this is just my reading of the teachings i have encountered.

it is clearly true that for me to assert that all higher vehicles place less emphasis on deportment would simply be blind and a simplistic assertion. overly simplisic. likewise for me to assert that all higher vehicles place considerable emphasis on vinaya would be overly simplistic.

my assertion was simply a view based on reading, it may be wrong in the minds of some. right in the minds of others. this makes it neither wrong nor right, but only a view... playing with words.

thank you for your observation Kirtu, it has opened my my mind to the flexibility of any doctrinal position.

best wishes, White Lotus.

purity. impurity.
neither impurity nor purity.
both of these. neither of these.
never. whatever.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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jikai
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby jikai » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:30 pm

Hi White Lotus,
below is a brief outline of the 'original enlightenment' (Hongaku Shiso) thought in Tendai Buddhism as understood by Jacqueline Stone:

"original enlightenment thought" denotes an array of doctrines and concepts associated with the proposition that all beings are enlightened inherently. Not only human beings, but ants and crickets, mountains and rivers, grasses and trees are all innately Buddhas. The Buddhas who appear in sutras, radiating light and endowed with excellent marks, are merely provisional signs. The "real" Buddha is the ordinary worldling. Indeed, the whole phenomenal world is the primordially enlightened Tathagata."

This is what the "Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" by Asvaghosa has to say about original enlightenment:

“The essence of Mind is free from thoughts. The characteristic of that which is free from thoughts is analogous to that of the sphere of empty space that pervades everywhere. The one without any second, i.e. the absolute aspect of the World of Reality (Dharma-dhatu) is none other than the undifferentiated Dharmakaya, the “Essence-body” of the Tathagata. Since the essence of Mind is grounded on the Dharmakaya, it is to be called the original enlightenment. Why? Because “original enlightenment” indicates [the essence of Mind (a priori)] in contradistinction to [the essence of Mind in] the process of actualization of enlightenment; the process of actualization of enlightenment is none other than the process of integrating the identity with the original enlightenment”

hope that helps!
Gassho
Jikai
"There are no seperate dharma's in the Three Realms. There is only the operation of the one mind."
"Whoever wishes to benefit beings ought to establish teachings that fit their capacities, expound the dharma in accordance with their capacities, and match the doctrines to them"

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jikai
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby jikai » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:31 pm

The Awakening of Faith does follow it with this however...:

“Grounded on the original enlightenment is non-enlightenment. And because of non-enlightenment, the process of actualization of enlightenment can be spoken of. Now, to be [fully] enlightened to the fountainhead of Mind is called the final enlightenment, and not to be enlightened to the fountainhead of Mind, non-final enlightenment”

Gassho
Jikai
"There are no seperate dharma's in the Three Realms. There is only the operation of the one mind."
"Whoever wishes to benefit beings ought to establish teachings that fit their capacities, expound the dharma in accordance with their capacities, and match the doctrines to them"

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Quiet Heart
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Quiet Heart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:55 am

:smile:
Some excellant and thought provoking comments on this topic!

Just let me (perhaps) widen the perspective a little further.
What do you think of this statement (I can only give a rough quote):
"In time, even the rocks and the trees shall shout of Liberation".

Just wondering what you all make of that statement?
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach

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LastLegend
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Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:30 am

Excuse me but what?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―


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