Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:41 pm

:namaste: When the buddha became enlightened. did he see all beings as equally enlightened to himself. What does the scripture say about this?

i wonder if the Old Rice Bag could compassionately inform me on this from scripture.

best wishes, White Lotus. x :rolleye:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Dae Bi » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:51 am

How about, the mind that allowed Siddartha to become Buddha is the same mind that you and I have. Ergo, we all have the potenial of "Being Buddha." It is only because of our ignorance that we are not. Buddha realised that we are all one mind and so, "We are all Buddha."
The mind itself is empty. Only when we add ignorance and delusion, is there "Something." Hui Neng realised this, when he wrote, "Essentially there is no mirror." Unlike the Gatha that stated that the mind is like a mirror and one must constanly wipe away the dust. Which means, recognising the afflictions and dealing with them. Hui Neng on the other hand, realised that these afflictions are also empty. Realising emptiness as the true nature of dharma(things), why then would one need to wipe away the dust?
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
Dae Bi
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:25 am
Location: Sydney Oz

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Huifeng » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:35 am

White Lotus wrote::namaste: When the buddha became enlightened. did he see all beings as equally enlightened to himself. What does the scripture say about this?

i wonder if the Old Rice Bag could compassionately inform me on this from scripture.

best wishes, White Lotus. x :rolleye:


The standard line is this:

我今普見一切眾生。具有如來智慧德相。但以妄想執著而不證得。

I see that all living beings have the virtuous qualities of the Tathagata's wisdom, yet due to conceptualizing the unreal and grasping, they are unable to realize it.
User avatar
Huifeng
 
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:51 am

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:25 pm

:namaste: thank you Venerable Hui Feng and Dae Bi.

i agree Dae Bi, that essentially there is no mirror and therefore no need for polishing. nor is there a true nature, beyond the mundane selves that we experience every day of our lives.

I see that all living beings have the virtuous qualities of the Tathagata's wisdom, yet due to conceptualizing the unreal and grasping, they are unable to realize it.


what is conceptualizing the unreal and grasping? how could such natural events have any effect whasoever upon ones field of merit. why realize what we already have?

my line of thinking at the moment is very much that everyone is a buddha. i would love some scripture that may support such a notion. realizing that there is no enlightenment i could then rest at ease that everyone is going to be alright and that everyone is doing just fine, just as they are! and realzing that there is no enlightenment would then be to me perfective enlightenment.

thanks again for your input.

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:35 pm

Wu.
no realization is required,
no non realization is required,
there is no practice,
there is no non practice,
no kind of self or non self is required,
it is just as it is,
you are just as you are.
no mirror to polish.
no self nature to worry about.
there is nothing in it.
this is emptiness,
emptiness is not.

white lotus.

:heart: how could everyone not be enlightened?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Dae Bi » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:48 am

White Lotus, may I ask you to consider this Hwa do, "Who is realising?"
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
Dae Bi
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:25 am
Location: Sydney Oz

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Huifeng » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:34 am

White Lotus wrote:
I see that all living beings have the virtuous qualities of the Tathagata's wisdom, yet due to conceptualizing the unreal and grasping, they are unable to realize it.


what is conceptualizing the unreal and grasping? how could such natural events have any effect whasoever upon ones field of merit. why realize what we already have?


What does not exist, they conceptualize that it does exist.
There is a difference between being something, and knowing that. The first statement is an ontological one, the latter is an epistemological cum soteriological one. Only the latter is realization, not the ontological situation. Phenomena have always been in a state of pacification, but that doesn't mean that we have realized that fact.

my line of thinking at the moment is very much that everyone is a buddha. i would love some scripture that may support such a notion. realizing that there is no enlightenment i could then rest at ease that everyone is going to be alright and that everyone is doing just fine, just as they are! and realzing that there is no enlightenment would then be to me perfective enlightenment.



But, because beings are deluded, what they are doing is really not fine, they are just continuing on in samsara. "Everyone can become a buddha" is useful to encourage those without self confidence. But, if they stupidly grasp at this, and think: "Then I don't need to practice!", then this expedient encouragement will turn into a wrong view, difficult to remove. The poison it will exude will kill them in the end (ie. end their spiritual progress.)
User avatar
Huifeng
 
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:51 am

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:22 pm

:namaste: Venerable Hui Feng and Dae Bi,

thank you for your kind replies. i will try to work/polish, the hwa do, but honestly i dont think nor feel that there is anyone realizing or to realize anything. i cannot go against my direct experience in this matter, nonetheless will try to keep the hwa dao in mind.

please note that i see no difference between experience of self in the five skhandas and abscence of experience of self. self and no self are no different.

Phenomena have always been in a state of pacification, but that doesn't mean that we have realized that fact.


i have probably not realized that fact, it only seems logical to me.

But, because beings are deluded, what they are doing is really not fine, they are just continuing on in samsara.


it seems to me that the only delusion is that there is delusion. what beings are doing (in the words of Seng Chan) is neither 'right nor wrong', this is no excuse to deny the consequences of cause and effect.

i believe that there is no practice, but in order to bring harmony, i practice with my eyes on the consequnces of cause and effect, believing that ultimately there is not even a cause nor an effect. but for the practical benefits of practice, i continue in my practice... which i enjoy.

to deny cause and effect is to become a monster, to practice with an understanding of cause and effect is to become a saint. before enlightenment, eating cornflakes for breakfast. after enlightenment, eating cornflakes for breakfast. who says that practice must be relinquished. i dont.

it just seems to me that the notion we are deluded is in itself the greatest delusion.

with respect, White Lotus.

perhaps, what people are
hung up about are merely cobwebs,
just shadows. is there honestly
any delusion?
is not the functioning already perfect?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Dae Bi » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:29 pm

We exist, we don't exist. We neither exist nor don't exist. We both exist and don't exist.

Emptiness/void is form. Form is emptiness/void.

Who am I? I don't know. The leaves on the Frangipani tree in the back yard are begining to fall, Autum.
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
Dae Bi
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:25 am
Location: Sydney Oz

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:46 am

I'm honestly not aware of a school of Buddhism that claims that all beings are already enlightened. Rather, the standard teaching is that we have the potential to be liberated from samsara. Some say a seed or a potential.

It's most likely that all of us here are in the human realm. We're regularly experiencing dukkha, samsara, and conventional reality.

Kind wishes,
Laura
Ngawang Drolma
Founding Member
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:44 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:59 pm

:namaste: Nice understanding Dae Bi, and also, i love frangipani trees. does your one have white and yellow flowers, what a fragrance!!!

yes, Laura, i am not aware of a school of buddhism that sees all as enlightened, but it just seems logical to me. why polish a brick if it is already a brick? i guess this is the White Lotus view of buddhism.

that the view that there is no enlightenment, is perfective enlightenment and signs will follow it. this is emptiness of view. no being ever been enlightened, all beings are perfectly enlightened. i say no being ever been enlightened because there is no enlightenment. 'this' is enlightenment. this is it. there being no enlightenment it stands that all are enlightened.

no mirror to polish, no brick to polish, no nature to polish. perfect just as you are.

Laura, i liked your avatar today, it was calming. (green leaves with dripping water)

best wishes, White Lotus. x

i really dont know what i am talking about,
but its fun anyway.


to me at the moment, the purest of all dharmas is "there is no enlightenment to attain." to have such a view is to be in accord with perfective enlightenment, but also not to have such a view is to be in accord with perfective enlightenment, naturally so. already having perfect enlightenment. there is no difference... anywhere. all are equal, all are buddhas, even and every grain of sand, every particle of dust. perfectly enlightened.

:oops: now please note that i may be utterly wrong in my speculations, everyone should rely on their own judgement.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:46 am

White Lotus wrote:i really dont know what i am talking about,
but its fun anyway.


Well I do like this kind of candor :)

Have some fun, life has enough dukkha.

Kind wishes,
Laura

ps. glad you like the avie
Ngawang Drolma
Founding Member
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:44 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:57 pm

your avie is beautiful.

best wishes, white lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:20 pm

in the diamond sutra Section 3. The Real Teaching of The Great Way, we are told...
all these are caused by me to attain unbounded liberation Nirvana


is this an accurate translation?

who are 'all these'?

is this liberation timeless? unbounded?

i dont see how the buddha caused 'all these' to attain, that which is not an attainment (enlightenment). did not everyone and everything already perfectly express what it is. this, being beyond descriptions and judgements of good and bad, right and wrong.. all being fundamentally the same (samatta).

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Wed May 05, 2010 6:58 pm

:namaste: according to Master Seung Sahn...

Buddha Said "all beings are already enlightened"


page 156, Dropping Ash on the Buddha.

this is exactly how i see it. i dont see good or evil, wrathful, deities or gentle bodhisattvas... all is just so. there is one flavour, one taste to all things, that one taste is emptiness. all is empty. emptiness is emptiness.

we all taste emptiness. when any person focuses on himself, that is the focus of emptiness. the focus of self is no different from the focus of external objects. the emptiness within is the emptiness without. the self is empty, forms are empty. the same taste. all people have this even without realizing it. the natural state of normal mind is perfective enlightenment. taste yourself... empty. taste emptiness... empty. taste the external world... empty. ce ca. (thats that). we all have it, we all see it with normal mind. so.

love white lotus. x

rejoice in normal mind.
rejoice in normal self.
rejoice in normal objects/forms.
emptiness.
emptiness.
emptiness.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Will » Thu May 06, 2010 4:29 am

While the view that tathagatagarbha or buddha nature is a seed or potential is more popular, there are, in the Kagyu, Nyingma & of course the Jonangpa Tibetan schools (not to mention in Chinese Buddhism) the view that we have a full buddha within. Passages in the Nirvana Sutra and other Tathagatagarbha sutras support the full buddha within notion, other passages support the seed view.
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Thu May 06, 2010 7:04 pm

:namaste: Noble Will, thank you. its good to hear about the buddha we are.

but do we need to polish the buddha within so that he becomes the buddha without? i say no. but polishing can be fun, so long as it does not become an attachment.

the korean zen partriarch Seung Sahn liked to quote "the spring comes and grasses grow on their own." enlightenment is certain.

this is the buddha just as he is.

i understand it. i know it, but i cannot attach to enlightenment.

best wishes, White Lotus.

summer rains,
winter retreats.
just so.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby White Lotus » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:24 pm

:namaste: Daoxin, the future patriarch of zen when he first met the Patriarch, Great Master Jianzhi said to him "I beg the priest in his great compassion to give me the teaching of liberation."

the patriarch replied, "who is binding you?" Daoxin replied, "No one is binding me". the patriarch answered "then why are you seeking liberation?" with these words Daoxin was greatly awakened.

so that was the beginning, now the end...

On the fourth day of the ninth month in 651, he (Daoxin) suddenly said to his followers, "all things are completely liberated. you must each keep this in mind and pass it on to posterity." when he finished speaking, he sat peacefully in meditation and expired.

with best wishes from White Lotus.

what is there to attain when you
already have it? just as you are.
right here right now... 'this' is it!

talk of beginning and end, enlightenment
and delusion. there is no difference
between any of these things. in
the fundamental Mind there is no difference.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby noclue » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:19 am

What about suffering?
noclue
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:36 am

Re: Seeing All Beings as Buddhas.

Postby Dae Bi » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:58 am

Who is making you suffer?
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
Dae Bi
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:25 am
Location: Sydney Oz

Next

Return to East Asian Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

>