What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:31 pm

i feel love in my heart for him. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
I bow to you Tsem Tuklu !!!!
May you have a long and happy healthy peaceful life !

:buddha1:
:heart:
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby gnegirl » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:57 pm

i say read both sides and know the sources of the info, both positive and negative.

Analyze both, filter out the cr*p and make up your mind for yourself. Its the only way you will have certainty about the decision.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby sangyey » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:20 pm

If it wasn't for Rinpoche giving me the Gaden Lha Gyema to do in 2007 when I wrote to him about being attacked by nagas in my dreams I have no idea what path I would be following now or if I would have the merit/connection for meeting my precious Root Guru and having a connection to Mahayana/Vajrayana. In fact, before I had labeled myself a Buddhist without ever even taken refuge until I started doing the Gaden Lha Gyema and studying authentic Dharma thanks to Rinpoche. Not to mention even how many animals I haven't digested and caused harm to thanks to Rinpoche and his organization promoting vegetarianism. Probably many stories like mine as well.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Caz » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:36 pm

sangyey wrote:If it wasn't for Rinpoche giving me the Gaden Lha Gyema to do in 2007 when I wrote to him about being attacked by nagas in my dreams I have no idea what path I would be following now or if I would have the merit/connection for meeting my precious Root Guru and having a connection to Mahayana/Vajrayana. In fact, before I had labeled myself a Buddhist without ever even taken refuge until I started doing the Gaden Lha Gyema and studying authentic Dharma thanks to Rinpoche. Not to mention even how many animals I haven't digested and caused harm to thanks to Rinpoche and his organization promoting vegetarianism. Probably many stories like mine as well.


Tsem Rinpoche is excellent and high quality im glad you can vouch for him here amongst the fault pickers. :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby uslic001 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:20 pm

The only criticism I have seen is on Wikipedia in regards to his prior support for Kelsang Gyatso from the banned New Kadampa tradition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso

"Tsem Tulku praised Geshe Kelsang and his publications: "The great master, the Kadampa Geshe, Kelsang Gyatso, you can see very clearly his works, his centers, his books, his pure vows, and how many thousands of people he affects."[53 ^ Karma & its Relation to Vows (Part 2 of 2, 10:54-11:09), 2006-01-16, retrieved 2010-08-16.]"

I believe that since that quote he has distanced himself from Kelsang Gyatso and the NKT.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby alwayson » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:23 pm

Well even the Dalai Lama wrote forwards to some of Kelsang Gyatso's books at one point.

:rolling:


Off the top of my head, the FIRST edition of Clear Light of Bliss.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:55 pm

I don't think anybody can deny GKG qualifications and knowledge. He definitely earned them through hard work and practice. AND let's not forget that all the Gelugpas practiced the gyalpo before the decision to drop him from the mandala. So it's pretty tough to find a pre-1996 Gelug lama that did not say something positive about the gyalpo.

That includes Tsem Tulku and HHDL.

So I don't know if that is really a valid criticism.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:05 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: AND let's not forget that all the Gelugpas


Not all, many -- mostly in Kham, Mongolia and Central Tibet.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Caz » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:06 pm

Does anyone apply rule 4 around here or is it just Ignored for good measure ? :rules:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby MrDistracted » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:06 pm

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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby alwayson » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:53 pm

I like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JAC3JUdq3s


Tsem Rinpoche is awesome. Case Closed. This thread should be deleted.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:15 pm

Let me try to steer around this by using generalities and hopefully avoiding any breach of ToS, or at least being given a little leeway.

Tsem himself has been very clear. This forum knows that from past requests to him - the link has been given in the post preceding this one.

I have also spoken to a few Gelugpa Geshes about this.

In the NKT and out of it, no Guru has ever forced me to adopt any particular Protector practice, nor is there any samaya involved, as I understand it, with Gyalpos, either those approved of or disapproved of. So anyone is free to begin or end any practice their Guru recommends. Of course, if a being is regarded as a Yidam taking the form of a Gyalpo things may get complicated, but surely there would still be no samaya relating to that 'form' as opposed to the deity himself.

The Gurus I spoke to affirmed that we should focus on the enormous kindness and good qualities of all our Gurus in giving us Dharma practices.

None of the main parties (GKG ,Tsem Tulku and HHDL) has advised anyone to dump their Guru, and each is using a different Protector, oracle etc. so should be able to get along. However, Tsem Tulku is willing to act to do what is necessary to remain part of the Vajrayana which HHDL controls.

There is no problem with this, and the discussion of these three protagonists masks the really delicate issue facing those monks in India who are able to be disciplined by HHDL and their monasteries if they do not wish to abandon a practice when he asks them to do so.

Leaving aside propaganda and politics which continue to be problematic, most of those unwilling monks (all?) are now in monasteries where they are free to choose whatever Gyalpo they wish.

So this is an issue which is petering out and maybe we should pray that it fades to the extent that ToS are not necessary here.

:namaste:
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby heart » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:09 pm

Empowerment's without samaya, a new invention of the Gelukpas?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:07 am

Caz wrote:Does anyone apply rule 4 around here or is it just Ignored for good measure ? :rules:


Facts are being pointed. It's not a discussion.

The facts are:
- NKT is not recognized by the throne-holders of the four main traditions or by HHDL as a legitimate Buddhist school, neither Kelsang Gyatso as a legitimate geshe any longer since he was expelled from the Sera Je Monastery.
- Dorje Shugden propitiation is not advised by the four main schools and HHDL who renounced this practice and actively discourages it as he considers it detrimental to the unity of the various Buddhist traditions of Tibet.
- Tsem Tulku has distanced himself from Kelsang Gyatso and publicly says that we follows HHDL advice on this.

These are public facts, not accusations or discussion of the subject. I can allow them as this is not a subject of controversy. Facts never are. Practitioners who continue to do the above mentioned practice, and think it is beneficial, may not like them, but these are facts, not interpretations or discussion about different points of view.

The guideline number 4 clearly states that:
In light of certain contentious practices and traditions that exist within the scope of Vajrayana Buddhism, the Dharma Wheel website will abide by instructions given to practitioners by the Dalai Lama in regards to discussion of controversial issues, practices, and images.


However, we advise people,
to refrain from the public discussion of controversial topics which detract from productive exchange within the forum.


and as this topic seems irrelevant as Tsem Tulku is a known lama, quite famous, and people can inform themselves easily about his qualifications and work outside this forum, it will be locked.


Best wishes,

DN
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